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Chris5156
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

Post by Chris5156 »

Starling wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:42In other countries they have specific government bodies that look after all roads, there is not a separate road department for every local authority, I think this way works much better. It might be better if BEAR Scotland maintained all the roads in Scotland and not just the main arterial ones. When you have local authorities responsible for maintaining roads it makes it too tempting for them to spend the money that should be spent on road on other things like housing, health or education etc. If there is a government body that is specifically for maintaining all roads then the money they get for roads is 'ringfenced' and can't be spent on other things.
I’d be interested to know which countries you’re thinking of and what their roads are like. I’m only aware of one place where all roads are maintained by a single government body, which is Northern Ireland.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

Post by Herned »

There's surely a case for a tourist tax of a couple of pounds a night or something, especially for motorhomes. Plenty of cities and other places charge those these days
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Herned wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:04 There's surely a case for a tourist tax of a couple of pounds a night or something, especially for motorhomes. Plenty of cities and other places charge those these days
It's difficult to charge Tourist Tax when they're wild camping, as many do nowadays - indeed they contribute little to the local economy, stocking up on food and drink at supermarkets further south and most of the fuel they buy goes straight to Westminster as taxation.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

Post by jnty »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:18
Herned wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:04 There's surely a case for a tourist tax of a couple of pounds a night or something, especially for motorhomes. Plenty of cities and other places charge those these days
It's difficult to charge Tourist Tax when they're wild camping, as many do nowadays - indeed they contribute little to the local economy, stocking up on food and drink at supermarkets further south and most of the fuel they buy goes straight to Westminster as taxation.
I think by definition genuine wild campers have very minimal local impact - many won't even be using cars to get to their trailhead. (I've done a fair bit of wild camping in Scotland over the years and can't actually think of the last time one was car-assisted in any way. And on the longer trips I've certainly not been 'stocking up' on anything if I can help it and making heavy use of local businesses of all kinds where available!)

Car and van campers - which I feel is what you might be referring to - are another matter but many will probably make use of local shops, cafes etc. and responsible ones are likely to make use of organised facilities for much of their stay anyway. Car camping is technically legal in Scotland as I understand it under separate legislation to wild camping but probably due a bit of a reform at some point. In any case, if all the accommodation is as stowed out as we always hear (and my own experiences certainly corroborate that) a tourist tax would probably be a good start at helping the council recoup some of the bonanza being enabled by the services they are obliged to provide.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

jnty wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 13:47
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:18
Herned wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:04 There's surely a case for a tourist tax of a couple of pounds a night or something, especially for motorhomes. Plenty of cities and other places charge those these days
It's difficult to charge Tourist Tax when they're wild camping, as many do nowadays - indeed they contribute little to the local economy, stocking up on food and drink at supermarkets further south and most of the fuel they buy goes straight to Westminster as taxation.
I think by definition genuine wild campers have very minimal local impact - many won't even be using cars to get to their trailhead. (I've done a fair bit of wild camping in Scotland over the years and can't actually think of the last time one was car-assisted in any way. And on the longer trips I've certainly not been 'stocking up' on anything if I can help it and making heavy use of local businesses of all kinds where available!)

Car and van campers - which I feel is what you might be referring to - are another matter but many will probably make use of local shops, cafes etc. and responsible ones are likely to make use of organised facilities for much of their stay anyway. Car camping is technically legal in Scotland as I understand it under separate legislation to wild camping but probably due a bit of a reform at some point. In any case, if all the accommodation is as stowed out as we always hear (and my own experiences certainly corroborate that) a tourist tax would probably be a good start at helping the council recoup some of the bonanza being enabled by the services they are obliged to provide.
I was referring to modern wild camping - arrive in a hired motorhome, stop for the night wherever they please, leave their rubbish for someone else to deal with (including faeces) and then move on.

Traditional wild camping isn't an issue.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

Post by jnty »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 14:08
jnty wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 13:47
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:18

It's difficult to charge Tourist Tax when they're wild camping, as many do nowadays - indeed they contribute little to the local economy, stocking up on food and drink at supermarkets further south and most of the fuel they buy goes straight to Westminster as taxation.
I think by definition genuine wild campers have very minimal local impact - many won't even be using cars to get to their trailhead. (I've done a fair bit of wild camping in Scotland over the years and can't actually think of the last time one was car-assisted in any way. And on the longer trips I've certainly not been 'stocking up' on anything if I can help it and making heavy use of local businesses of all kinds where available!)

Car and van campers - which I feel is what you might be referring to - are another matter but many will probably make use of local shops, cafes etc. and responsible ones are likely to make use of organised facilities for much of their stay anyway. Car camping is technically legal in Scotland as I understand it under separate legislation to wild camping but probably due a bit of a reform at some point. In any case, if all the accommodation is as stowed out as we always hear (and my own experiences certainly corroborate that) a tourist tax would probably be a good start at helping the council recoup some of the bonanza being enabled by the services they are obliged to provide.
I was referring to modern wild camping - arrive in a hired motorhome, stop for the night wherever they please, leave their rubbish for someone else to deal with (including faeces) and then move on.

Traditional wild camping isn't an issue.
That behaviour doesn't fit any reasonable definition of wild camping and I think its unhelpful to use the term to describe it, as it blights the reputation of genuine wild camping - a unique and often threatened right - and creates the impression that inconsiderate vehicle camping is legally protected.

I quite like "fly camping" as a term to describe the full range of behaviours you're alluding to myself.

In any case, if there's so many millions being generated for private businesses there must be plenty of NC500 using the route in a legitimate way. Surely there's some way of giving the council a larger slice to cover the increased stress - a tourist tax is exactly what's planned for Edinburgh which has a similar problem during the fringe. General anti social behaviour is a different matter, probably for the police or park rangers, and largely perpetrated by "domestic tourists" I'd imagine.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

Post by Starling »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 14:08
jnty wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 13:47
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:18

It's difficult to charge Tourist Tax when they're wild camping, as many do nowadays - indeed they contribute little to the local economy, stocking up on food and drink at supermarkets further south and most of the fuel they buy goes straight to Westminster as taxation.
I think by definition genuine wild campers have very minimal local impact - many won't even be using cars to get to their trailhead. (I've done a fair bit of wild camping in Scotland over the years and can't actually think of the last time one was car-assisted in any way. And on the longer trips I've certainly not been 'stocking up' on anything if I can help it and making heavy use of local businesses of all kinds where available!)

Car and van campers - which I feel is what you might be referring to - are another matter but many will probably make use of local shops, cafes etc. and responsible ones are likely to make use of organised facilities for much of their stay anyway. Car camping is technically legal in Scotland as I understand it under separate legislation to wild camping but probably due a bit of a reform at some point. In any case, if all the accommodation is as stowed out as we always hear (and my own experiences certainly corroborate that) a tourist tax would probably be a good start at helping the council recoup some of the bonanza being enabled by the services they are obliged to provide.
I was referring to modern wild camping - arrive in a hired motorhome, stop for the night wherever they please, leave their rubbish for someone else to deal with (including faeces) and then move on.

Traditional wild camping isn't an issue.
Yes wild camping (with a tent) is not an issue, there are not really that many people who do it. Lots of people try it and they get put off from doing it again because it is too much wind and rain or they get eaten by midges and ticks. The seasoned wild campers who do it regularly leave no mess at all. During the covid lock downs there were a lot of young people leaving a mess who would usually go away to party places like Magaluf or Benidorm on holiday but were going wild camping instead, but now they can go abroad again.

People with rental cars and motorhomes seem to cause a lot more damage because they drive them quite carelessly, you often seem them driving quickly though pot holes and on narrow roads you often see them driving on the verge of the roads eroding them away over time, the verges get eroded and the roads start to collapse. People with privately owned motorhomes seem to drive a lot more carefully, you don't really see them driving on the verges obviously because they own the vehicle and don't want to damage it.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

Post by jnty »

Starling wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 22:27 People with rental cars and motorhomes seem to cause a lot more damage because they drive them quite carelessly, you often seem them driving quickly though pot holes and on narrow roads you often see them driving on the verge of the roads eroding them away over time, the verges get eroded and the roads start to collapse. People with privately owned motorhomes seem to drive a lot more carefully, you don't really see them driving on the verges obviously because they own the vehicle and don't want to damage it.
Yes - I'm sure there are plenty of responsible rental camper van drivers but I did see one hit two cars on the same street last summer so there's obviously a big range - as with all driving. There's been proposals for some kind of road tolling tourism tax but without an existing national road charging scheme it's probably unworkable. However, a tourism tax on vehicle hire, linked to axle weight, might be a goer. It would probably have to be Scotland wide though, funding grants for roads thought to receive heavy tourist traffic.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

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Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:18
It's difficult to charge Tourist Tax when they're wild camping, as many do nowadays - indeed they contribute little to the local economy, stocking up on food and drink at supermarkets further south and most of the fuel they buy goes straight to Westminster as taxation.
Its difficult to charge a tourist tax at all. If I hire a car at an airport how can you tell if I am a tourist, on business visiting relatives or live there !

Yes excise duties go back to Westminster but then Westminster remits revenue to Scotland under the Barnett rules. Lots of luck driving around the NC500 without buying food, fuel or drink. Its over 500 miles and these are not high speed roads. The places I stocked up were Brora, Wick, Thurso and Ullapool.

In fact the most common complaints are about tourists driving too slowly and townies stopping in passing places, a problem in part due to lack of investment in proper parking zones, they might try talking to the folk in Alaska who are clued up in this regard. Outside most Alaskan settlements you will find RV parks ranging from National Forest camp sites with just water and (primitive) toilets to those with power, cable tv, internet, water and sewage hookups.

Its also worth pointing out that the insurance of most rented campervans specifically excludes certain risks such as damage to tyres, wheels, undercarriage , exhausts etc through driving offroad or on unsealed roads

I have driven in remote areas from Alaska to Australia and they seem to manage and I have to say I have always been welcome in Scotland too. Here is the other Southend (Mull of Kintyre) - worth a trip and while in the area visit Crinan and Kilmartin Glen which should be far better known as its as old as Stonehenge and Avebury without all the fences and English Heritage fences, queues and bureaucratic rules.

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Re: NC500 Road Surface

Post by rileyrob »

Yes there is always a problem differentiating between leisure and business use, whether for a hire car or hotel room. However, the vast majority (if not all) motor home hires are for leisure, so creating new road tax brackets for them would be an ideal means of raising extra revenue - especially if it was possible to differentiate between private and business owners.
In New Zealand they do just this, motorhomes are classified depending on the facilities on board (toilet or not for instance) and taxed accordingly. I don't believe they differentiate between private or business, which has resulted in a thriving system of private owners leasing their vehicles out through the big motorhome hire companies. This could be considered beneficial in many ways, as fewer vehicles are parked up for 48 weeks of the year, as is often the case in the UK.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

Post by jnty »

It does seem like there's loads of examples of ways of dealing with this from across the world, but the local government lacks the powers to implement any of them and for national government the focus seems to be on short term lets and the housing crisis they're causing. It's perhaps a fair prioritisation but as always I'd argue more general devolution to local government would mean they wouldn't have to juggle so many local issues on the national stage.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

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jnty wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 08:55 However, a tourism tax on vehicle hire, linked to axle weight, might be a goer. It would probably have to be Scotland wide though, funding grants for roads thought to receive heavy tourist traffic.
A pretty high proportion of the camper vans we saw a few weeks ago around the NC500 were from abroad: Germany, Netherlands, Swiss and so on - and probably a fair number from England/Wales too although they are harder to spot. Not sure how to collect a tourist tax on those especially if they are not on an organised/official site.

There have been various proposals on a tourist tax for parts of the UK, but they have all (that I am aware of) been scuppered from concerns on collection and enforcement. Yet many places around the world do have them.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

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Alderpoint wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 13:04 There have been various proposals on a tourist tax for parts of the UK, but they have all (that I am aware of) been scuppered from concerns on collection and enforcement. Yet many places around the world do have them.
An Edinburgh tourist tax on accommodation is close after a long journey being debated and approved by council resulting in a request being sent to the Scottish parliament to devolve the powers leading to the powers eventually having been devolved and then requiring the measure to once again be approved by the council in accordance with the new national legislation. I think the difficulty has been largely in getting the powers to do it though - in practical terms it's simply going to be a charge per night levied on and collected by the accommodation providers themselves.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

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jnty wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 13:28
Alderpoint wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 13:04 There have been various proposals on a tourist tax for parts of the UK, but they have all (that I am aware of) been scuppered from concerns on collection and enforcement. Yet many places around the world do have them.
An Edinburgh tourist tax on accommodation is close after a long journey being debated and approved by council resulting in a request being sent to the Scottish parliament to devolve the powers leading to the powers eventually having been devolved and then requiring the measure to once again be approved by the council in accordance with the new national legislation. I think the difficulty has been largely in getting the powers to do it though - in practical terms it's simply going to be a charge per night levied on and collected by the accommodation providers themselves.

This is in fact then a tax on short term accommodation not tourism which means being their on business or visiting relatives and friends is also taxed. This would of course be on top of VAT which has been restored to 20%. If they want to make Edinburgh even less attractive as a destination for non business travellers that would certainly do it. When can we expect to see the Nae Sassenachs or Teuchter's signs to go up :)

Luckily I prefer the Borders. Lauder or Kelso will do for me.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

Post by jnty »

KeithW wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 15:10
jnty wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 13:28
Alderpoint wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 13:04 There have been various proposals on a tourist tax for parts of the UK, but they have all (that I am aware of) been scuppered from concerns on collection and enforcement. Yet many places around the world do have them.
An Edinburgh tourist tax on accommodation is close after a long journey being debated and approved by council resulting in a request being sent to the Scottish parliament to devolve the powers leading to the powers eventually having been devolved and then requiring the measure to once again be approved by the council in accordance with the new national legislation. I think the difficulty has been largely in getting the powers to do it though - in practical terms it's simply going to be a charge per night levied on and collected by the accommodation providers themselves.

This is in fact then a tax on short term accommodation not tourism which means being their on business or visiting relatives and friends is also taxed. This would of course be on top of VAT which has been restored to 20%. If they want to make Edinburgh even less attractive as a destination for non business travellers that would certainly do it. When can we expect to see the Nae Sassenachs or Teuchter's signs to go up :)

Luckily I prefer the Borders. Lauder or Kelso will do for me.
I think that's the normal style of tourism tax globally - correct me if I'm wrong. It might not hit people you'd describe as 'tourists' but generally people will be using local services without being payers of the local tax so a small contribution seems reasonable where impact is high. In Edinburgh they're talking one or two pounds a night which will barely be noticed - especially at Fringe time - but will probably improve the overall welcome through increased funding and a bit of a mitigation to the 'overtourism' narrative which is souring many locals against rising tourism generally.

And if the tax encourages some to the Borders then all the better. A very under appreciated part of the world and lots of it to go around. Of course if they decided to hold the largest international arts festival in the world, things might change!
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

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jnty wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 16:27
I think that's the normal style of tourism tax globally - correct me if I'm wrong. It might not hit people you'd describe as 'tourists' but generally people will be using local services without being payers of the local tax so a small contribution seems reasonable where impact is high. In Edinburgh they're talking one or two pounds a night which will barely be noticed - especially at Fringe time - but will probably improve the overall welcome through increased funding and a bit of a mitigation to the 'overtourism' narrative which is souring many locals against rising tourism generally.

And if the tax encourages some to the Borders then all the better. A very under appreciated part of the world and lots of it to go around. Of course if they decided to hold the largest international arts festival in the world, things might change!
Tourists of course DO pay local taxes in the form of 20% VAT on the room rate to start with as well as anything else they buy and lots of people stay in the borders for the fringe. You can catch a train from Tweedbank or Galashiels to Edinburgh

In the big picture the tourist tax wont make much difference in the overall cost to visitors or the city but may well put visitors off which I suspect is not the intention. On my infrequent trips into Edinburgh there always seemed to be plenty of people eager to take money off me. But then I hate big cities anyway so will admit to a bias. I visit Scotland to stay in places like this on the Crinan Canal
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

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KeithW wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:16 Tourists of course DO pay local taxes in the form of 20% VAT on the room rate to start with as well as anything else they buy
VAT is hardly a local tax - local government don't see a penny of it. The (supposed) point of a tourist tax is to make additional income for local authorities so they can make provision for (or mitigate the damage caused by) visitors.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

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Alderpoint wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:37
KeithW wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:16 Tourists of course DO pay local taxes in the form of 20% VAT on the room rate to start with as well as anything else they buy
VAT is hardly a local tax - local government don't see a penny of it. The (supposed) point of a tourist tax is to make additional income for local authorities so they can make provision for (or mitigate the damage caused by) visitors.
A tourist tax on for example the French model would be 20p to £4 per person per night depending on the type of accomodation and should not be too difficult to collect on organised sites. It is not going to put people off, even a family of four at the cheapest level that is less than £1 per night. But would be a welcome extra for the councils.

The NC500 has been a bit of a victim of its own success and has gotten very busy. The roads are therefore pummelled by the additional traffic and the weather. This could go to help repair it further. Also a significant section is still S1. Some upgrades from S1 to S2 can be seen on GSV, north of Laxford Bridge, but there is still S1 being used by people not used to driving on S1 roads.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

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exiled wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 20:57
Alderpoint wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:37
KeithW wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:16 Tourists of course DO pay local taxes in the form of 20% VAT on the room rate to start with as well as anything else they buy
VAT is hardly a local tax - local government don't see a penny of it. The (supposed) point of a tourist tax is to make additional income for local authorities so they can make provision for (or mitigate the damage caused by) visitors.
A tourist tax on for example the French model would be 20p to £4 per person per night depending on the type of accomodation and should not be too difficult to collect on organised sites. It is not going to put people off, even a family of four at the cheapest level that is less than £1 per night. But would be a welcome extra for the councils.
I agree. Many Brits are familiar with the tourist tax model as it is charged in many holiday areas across Europe. No reason why it couldn't be implemented in (parts of) the UK - and not just around the NC500, for example in *all* National Parks
The NC500 has been a bit of a victim of its own success and has gotten very busy. The roads are therefore pummelled by the additional traffic and the weather. This could go to help repair it further. Also a significant section is still S1. Some upgrades from S1 to S2 can be seen on GSV, north of Laxford Bridge, but there is still S1 being used by people not used to driving on S1 roads.
We noticed substantially less traffic away from the NC500 - including some lovely (but slow) single-track roads, we especially liked the c-road south from Lochinver towards Achiltibuie which is signposted with a length restriction and as unsuitable for caravans. Large sections of the NC500 route have been upgraded from S1 to S2 over the years: these are easily visible on a side-by-side comparison on NLS maps. Such upgrades do make for better and quicker traffic flow and allow for more problematic "spirited" driving, but does rather detract from the unspoilt nature of the region.
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Re: NC500 Road Surface

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Herned wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:04 There's surely a case for a tourist tax of a couple of pounds a night or something, especially for motorhomes. Plenty of cities and other places charge those these days
:soapbox: Can of worms ahoy!

I often visit the Peak District, using roads etc that residents pay to maintain and I do not.

So it is not unreasonable to suggest I should pay some form of tourist tax to contribute?

But
I may well be paying the relevant council or National Park Authority handsomely to use their car park.
I will probably spend some money in local shops or other businesses, which are paying VAT/rates/national insurance/insurance premium tax/corporation tax/other taxes, many of which would not survive hence not pay those taxes without visitors from Sheffield, Manchester, Burton on Trent etc.
So do I really owe any more? Would residents really be better off without tourists? And why the focus on tourists? I am working in Morley this week so the wear and tear I am causing to roads maintained by Leeds City Council is no different (actually it's more because I have two passengers and heavy luggage), so why shouldn't I have to pay for that instead of Owain having to pay for it?

If the tax applies to overnight visitors only, why should they have to pay but not day visitors?

Also many Derbyshire residents visit Sheffield, Manchester etc for shopping, work, cinemas etc, using roads that I am paying to maintain. Should they not also pay a tax to reimburse me?

Or is all this already dealt with in the government's distribution of taxes to councils?
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