A380 Speed limit

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ikcdab
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A380 Speed limit

Post by ikcdab »

The A380 runs from the end of the M5 at Exeter, past Newton Abbot and then runs round the back of Torbay, ending near Paignton Zoo.
Except for the last 1.5 miles, it is modern dual carriageway throughout.
For reasons I don't understand, the section between Newton Abbott and the junction with the A3022 at Edginswell is limited to 50mph. The other sections are NSL except when you get into built up areas. The irony is that this 50mph section is termed the South Devon Expressway.
Why the 50mph limit on this section? It doesn't seem to have any particular hazards, it doesn't run through built up areas, it seems exactly the same as the other dualled sections.
I've no particular issues with this, the people of Torbay dutifully crawl along this bit at 50mph, I'm just curious as to the reasoning.
tom66
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by tom66 »

It's close to residential properties. Chances are it was a condition of construction that the noise on the road be reduced. Or it might be because it's a natural area, so there are preservation orders.

I seem to recall this was one reason the majority of the M621 has a 50mph limit, whilst the bulk of the motorway was constructed to standards that would support a 70mph limit (weaving notwithstanding), it's too close to residential areas to permit such speeds.

The exceptions to this rule are inevitably places that are constructed after the road is built...e.g. whatever moronic planning-droid allowed these homes to be built about 10 ft away from a 70mph link road outside Birmingham:
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5106171 ... 384!8i8192

...and places where they just bulldozed through an area to put in a dual carriageway. Many of these have had the speed limits chopped down since, e.g. Buckden in Huntingdonshire has a 50 limit for the A1, historically (though not sure how far back!) this was NSL.
fras
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by fras »

Interesting that new houses in Ettiley Heath near where I live have been built next to a four-track railway open 24x7. The attached view shows the nearest house about 25 feet away from the line. It's also a 125mph section here too. There was no requirement for Network Rail to reduce the speed of trains.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.13932 ... 8192?hl=en
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jackal
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by jackal »

This was discussed in the relevant thread at the time the last section was constructed. There was supposedly not room for D2 past Sainsbury's, maybe they said there was not room for a high design speed either. Proximity to houses must be the main factor though.
Herned
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by Herned »

It has a lower design speed to save money - from memory that means it needed less land and earthworks as curves are a bit tighter and the distance of forward visibility could be reduced. It doesn't have 1m hard strips either
Bomag
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by Bomag »

ikcdab wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 22:29 The A380 runs from the end of the M5 at Exeter, past Newton Abbot and then runs round the back of Torbay, ending near Paignton Zoo.
Except for the last 1.5 miles, it is modern dual carriageway throughout.
For reasons I don't understand, the section between Newton Abbott and the junction with the A3022 at Edginswell is limited to 50mph. The other sections are NSL except when you get into built up areas. The irony is that this 50mph section is termed the South Devon Expressway.
Why the 50mph limit on this section? It doesn't seem to have any particular hazards, it doesn't run through built up areas, it seems exactly the same as the other dualled sections.
I've no particular issues with this, the people of Torbay dutifully crawl along this bit at 50mph, I'm just curious as to the reasoning.
The set backs around maddacombe road bridge along with the reduced SSD going south through the cutting are probably due to a lower deign speed. AFAIR the road was built to LHA standards (the original 1990's design was to DMRB).

As for the M621 that always had a reduced limit due to urban motorway geometry (TD27 etc), the 50 mph was extended south as they didn't want to fix the issue with the VRS and replaced it with something rated at 50 mph
Bendo
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by Bendo »

Wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't SPECS enforced :D. Almost caught me out the other week, the cameras used to start just by the flyover but it's now a lot further back. Fortunately I spotted it and had a dawdle at about 30 for a bit.

It's a bit of a boring slow crawl but still miles better than what was there before.
SteveA30
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by SteveA30 »

The new A303 from Sparkford to Podimore will run close to properties, especially the online section so, 50mph for that as well? A30 Chiverton to Carland Cross not so much but, 50 seems the default speed limit for new rural roads now. Presumably easier to introduce it from the start than to change it later.
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by Herned »

SteveA30 wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:45 The new A303 from Sparkford to Podimore will run close to properties, especially the online section so, 50mph for that as well? A30 Chiverton to Carland Cross not so much but, 50 seems the default speed limit for new rural roads now. Presumably easier to introduce it from the start than to change it later.
It's nothing to do with noise. The design speed is lower than the A303. It's all down to money (although the lower speed limit probably does reduce the need for noise mitigation, but that is a lot cheaper than building bigger bridges and wider earthworks)

Which new rural roads have opened with a 50 limit?
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KeithW
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by KeithW »

fras wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 23:51 Interesting that new houses in Ettiley Heath near where I live have been built next to a four-track railway open 24x7. The attached view shows the nearest house about 25 feet away from the line. It's also a 125mph section here too. There was no requirement for Network Rail to reduce the speed of trains.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.13932 ... 8192?hl=en
There is as far as I know no legal or moral justification for reducing the speed on existing railways when new buildings are erected, if a problem is perceived the answer is to refuse planning permission for the building. The reality is the developers usually boast about access to the railway network. One cause celebre that fell flat was the fuss over the building of HS1 in Kent. Residents were told that the noise would be intolerable and their house values would plummet. In fact they rose and a study showed they get more noise from the M20

Here is an extract from a report produced after the operation of the new service
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/466084/first_interim_evaluation_hs1_main-report.pdf wrote: Impact on residential property prices.

As previously discussed, a number of stakeholders were of the opinion that HS1 had greater influence on the
residential market than commercial development thus far. HS1 was thought to have supported an increase in
trips to London which was having an effect on making residential areas along the corridor more viable
commuter areas. As well as improved perceptions of the area, stakeholders referred to plans for residential
housing growth (in particular in Ashford and Dartford) in locations served by HS1 - house price increases
were seen to be linked to improved access to employment opportunities (primarily in London). Examples
cited by stakeholders were that house prices in Ashford were outstripping those elsewhere in Kent whilst
house prices in areas that are accessible from Ebbsfleet station have increased relative to other areas. It
should be noted that these findings are not corroborated by analysis of 2km buffer zones around stations.
However this may be because the areas of above average house price growth do not closely match the 2km
buffer zones around the station locations.

In locations that had seen significant journey time savings, accessibility to London was seen to be driving
changing perceptions about Kent as a place to live. This can lead to increased interest in moving to areas
that are now considered to be viable commuter locations.
“Longer term benefits to the UK are enormous – 27,000 jobs and an estimated $1billion in exported
products and services. We would not be implementing the scheme without HS1”.
Representative for Paramount Park

“HS1 supports access to higher value job opportunities in the financial and business services, historically
not areas where the commuting population of Kent were as well represented as locations to the south
and west of London. Employment opportunities are now more accessible as a result of the new routing
and over the long term this has the potential to change the skills profile of the county”.
Kent County Council
Modern electric trains run on continuous welded tracks produce relatively few complaints compared with road traffic and also far less vibration than HGV's and buses. I lived on Kenton Road Harrow and my flat was about 100 ft from the line which has 4 tracks on the Met Line and 2 for Chiltern Railways and I never found it intrusive, this is classic Metroland property built after the line was opened. In fact the only time noise ever registered was the morning after Michael Fish's hurricane and it was the absence of the usual sounds I noticed.

I lived in Gamlingay, South Cambs and when the wind was in the right direction I could hear road noise from the A1 4.5 miles away but never heard anything on the ECML which is a mile closer.

At Queensbury in North London the flats that back onto the line and are above the station are rather sought after. I just did a check and the rent they are asking for a 2 bed flat is £1250 per month.
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Bryn666
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by Bryn666 »

Train noise is nothing like road noise.

My parents live a mile away from the M65 and you can hear it. The Blackburn to Bolton railway, less than 1/4 mile away? Nothing, even when a diesel chugger rushes past.
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hoagy_ytfc
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

fras wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 23:51 There was no requirement for Network Rail to reduce the speed of trains.
Nor should there be. Firstly, this is housing built next to a railway, rather than a new railway through existing housing. Secondly, the railway will be surprisingly quiet - most traffic will be electric traction.

TBH, if I had a good view of the railway, I'd be quite happy to live somewhere like that :)
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KeithW
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by KeithW »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 14:54
fras wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 23:51 There was no requirement for Network Rail to reduce the speed of trains.
Nor should there be. Firstly, this is housing built next to a railway, rather than a new railway through existing housing. Secondly, the railway will be surprisingly quiet - most traffic will be electric traction.

TBH, if I had a good view of the railway, I'd be quite happy to live somewhere like that :)

I got lucky in Kent , I could see the Romney Hythe and Dymchurch Railway from my garden :)
tom66
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by tom66 »

fras wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 23:51 Interesting that new houses in Ettiley Heath near where I live have been built next to a four-track railway open 24x7. The attached view shows the nearest house about 25 feet away from the line. It's also a 125mph section here too. There was no requirement for Network Rail to reduce the speed of trains.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.13932 ... 8192?hl=en
But this is the exact point. Houses built after railway, well, you bought the house, you knew what you were getting. It's the same as buying a home under the flight path of Heathrow... or anyone buying those homes next to the A446 (not that they should have ever been given permission, but that's another matter.)

Houses there and a new railway built (e.g. HS2) then you have some possible cause for concern.
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by Norfolktolancashire »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 14:26 Train noise is nothing like road noise.

My parents live a mile away from the M65 and you can hear it. The Blackburn to Bolton railway, less than 1/4 mile away? Nothing, even when a diesel chugger rushes past.
Where I live the train noise is every fifteen minutes or so, on the other hand the motorcycle noise is every few minutes, particularly the big exhaust boys at 70 to 100 mph.

If the trains were every few minutes then I think I would notice them more!
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by fras »

Most people get used to the noise where they live, and only notice it when it's not there !
HS2 has now purchased a lot of properties not directly on the route, (but near it), so not subject to demolition. In fact many properties have been purchased under the "Need to Sell" scheme, a non-statutory regime for those who needed to sell and ordinarily would have done and expected to get a certain price. Along comes HS2 and crashes the market. HS2 will be able to sell these properties when the line is finished, and will probably get good money for them.

https://www.hs2.org.uk/documents/collec ... d-to-sell/
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by Truvelo »

This is an issue which crops up regularly on the forums and elsewhere. I would say the following.

If someone buys a house on or near a main road they should expect no right to complain about traffic noise as it was their choice to purchase a property in that location.

In the case of the A380 the houses were there before the road so it is only right that the road should be built in such a way that it mitigates any nuisance to any nearby properties although I agree the speed limit seems like a painful crawl. Saying that, it must be obvious to anyone buying a house near the Kingskerswell Bypass within the last 40 years that an extension of the expressway south of Penn Inn was possible so it should have shown up when potential purchasers had a survey done.
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by Bryn666 »

The goldplating of DMRB strikes again as well - I'd argue the A380 there is perfectly fine for 60. If the rollercoaster bit can be NSL there's just no consistency.
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ikcdab
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by ikcdab »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 18:11 The goldplating of DMRB strikes again as well - I'd argue the A380 there is perfectly fine for 60. If the rollercoaster bit can be NSL there's just no consistency.
which of course was my original point. No consistency. bowling along at NSL then suddenly restricted to 50mph with no apparent change in road conditions. It really is daft, around me (as in lots of other places) there are scores of NSL roads that are twisty etc or run near housing.
I have no issues with complying with a speed limit, just need to understand why.
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Re: A380 Speed limit

Post by Bryn666 »

ikcdab wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 19:32
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 18:11 The goldplating of DMRB strikes again as well - I'd argue the A380 there is perfectly fine for 60. If the rollercoaster bit can be NSL there's just no consistency.
which of course was my original point. No consistency. bowling along at NSL then suddenly restricted to 50mph with no apparent change in road conditions. It really is daft, around me (as in lots of other places) there are scores of NSL roads that are twisty etc or run near housing.
I have no issues with complying with a speed limit, just need to understand why.
Yep, get that completely - the limit will be a mix of lower design spec (by today's standards) and road noise near an urban area, but it doesn't communicate this to drivers whatsoever.
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