A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

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cb a1
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A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

Post by cb a1 »

I got sent this National Library of Scotland map link recently https://maps.nls.uk/view/196756580 because there, to the north of Perth City Centre was a bridge across the Tay in 1948.

I can't find this on any other map. However, on the 1948 aerial photograph https://maps.nls.uk/view/75220092, there appears to be something which looks like a road on the west side of the Tay leading to where the bridge is identified on the 1948 map.

I've tried doing some searching online, but haven't yet found anything about this.

Hence, casting the net wider to pick the brains of SABRE to see if anyone has any knowledge of this possible fourth Tay Bridge in Perth. Maybe it was a temporary bridge during the war (although I can't really see why one would be needed)?
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Perth - 1948 - 4th Bridge.png
Perth - 1948 - aerial.jpeg
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Steven
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Re: A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

Post by Steven »

The only map I can find it on is the base map from the Administrative Areas map you have posted the link to, which is 1:25k sheet 37/12 (NO12) Revision A. No evidence of it exists on the revision we have on SABRE Maps which is the slightly later Revision C.

I've gone through the Six Inch sheets from 1937 and 1947, and neither of those show a bridge at that location. The MoT maps don't, and the One Inch sheets don't.

Best guess is that if that bridge did exist (and the aerial photo certainly suggest it did) then it was possibly a temporary Bailey Bridge used during WW2 and removed immediately afterwards.
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Ruperts Trooper
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Re: A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

On the east bank of the Tay is a feature labelled Quarrymill - a quick Google shows that this was full of mills and quarries at some point so maybe the bridge connected to that, perhaps temporarily.
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RichardA35
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Re: A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

Post by RichardA35 »

cb a1 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 08:23...I can't find this on any other map. However, on the 1948 aerial photograph https://maps.nls.uk/view/75220092, there appears to be something which looks like a road on the west side of the Tay leading to where the bridge is identified on the 1948 map....
Looking at this photograph (it is also on Google earth) and there is quite a lot of housing development to the west and north west in progress. There is a similar trace running north west/south east across what is now North Inch Community Campus that appears to link to the east west trace. My educated guess is that the trace shown is a pipeline for the development. Whether it is a surface water outfall or an incoming utility (water?) is, to me, even more uncertain
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rileyrob
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Re: A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

Post by rileyrob »

It does appear on another map as well:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/189662800
The War Office 1:25,000 of 1942.

I agree with Steven that it was probably a temporary wartime bridge, but I can't see for what purpose. It connects to the residential Harley Place: https://www.google.com/maps/@56.4082689 ... 312!8i6656 , although the house on the left must be post-war. However, the maps don't show the connection through to Malvina Place, so traffic using the bridge would have had to go down Muirton Bank. The old Barracks (Now the Police HQ near the retail park) were close enough to the older bridges not to need this link, and I can't see it being particularly useful to reach Scone / the airport (assuming either had a wartime role).
The road is shown as being embanked across the golf course, but this has been removed, there is no sign of any abutments on Google Earth imagery, and the east bank has been thoroughly built over.

Did the War Office do such a thing as build temporary bridges away from old ones in case they got bombed out?
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rileyrob
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Re: A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

Post by rileyrob »

Found this photo too:
https://britainfromabove.org.uk/cy/image/SAW026585
It seems to show Harley Place continuing, with the house not yet built, but then the trees get in the way and it is difficult to see any more.

Curiously, however, this document: https://www.tafac.org.uk/wp-content/upl ... aeolog.pdf (took a while to load for me) doesn't mention any bridge on the relevant map (p36 / 149) I haven't read it though...
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KeithW
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Re: A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

Post by KeithW »

I found this reference to an Army Camp used by the Poles in the area during WW2. It seems to have become disused in 1946
http://www.polishforcesinbritain.info/PolonicaScone.htm wrote: n the early days of the War it is likely that one or more of the 1st Polish Army Corps Service Units was based in Scone. In February 1941, the 11th Workshops Section, consisting of 64 soldiers, including 6 officers was based here. At this time around one quarter of the strength of the Polish Army in Scotland (in total over 17,000 men) was located in Perthshire. Other Polish 1st Corps service units identified in 1941 in the Scone area, include the 11th Corps Vehicle Park and 11th Armament Park.

In 1945 the Tram Depot in Mansfield Road was being used by the Poles as a Static Dump. By August 1945 this had been cleared.

In July 1946, part of the Infantry Training Centre from Dunblane moved to Mansfield Park, Old Scone Camp, (about a mile west of Scone) but by August 1946 it had moved away. Farming courses were run at the camp.
Given the nature and size of the facility its quite likely a bridge would have been thrown across the Tay
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KeithW
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Re: A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

Post by KeithW »

rileyrob wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 09:38 Found this photo too:
https://britainfromabove.org.uk/cy/image/SAW026585
It seems to show Harley Place continuing, with the house not yet built, but then the trees get in the way and it is difficult to see any more.

Curiously, however, this document: https://www.tafac.org.uk/wp-content/upl ... aeolog.pdf (took a while to load for me) doesn't mention any bridge on the relevant map (p36 / 149) I haven't read it though...
From what I can gather the developments around the Tay came later in the war in 1943 after the 50th Northumbrian Division and 51st Highland Division were moved back to the UK to prepare for D-Day. My dad was at Catterick at that time , the 2 divisions were under strength due to losses in North Africa and Italy so they were kept busy training the new intakes.

Both the 51st and the Poles had a substantial presence in the area.
cb a1
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Re: A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

Post by cb a1 »

Thanks everyone for the detective work. Really appreciated :D
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We tend to demand impossible standards of proof from our opponents but accept any old rubbish to support our beliefs.
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cb a1
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Re: A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

Post by cb a1 »

For information, I received this nugget of information from a resident in the area who's also been looking into this.
The bridge was put in by Army Engineers from 1941 to 1948 at and on the golf course & was for all persons to use .

xxx told me that her Dad stated that he used to play on the bridge with his friends .

The reason it was taken away was down to the Earl of Mansfield complaining about it being on his land - according to xxx's Dad.
Separately, I went out last night to see if I could see any hint of the bridge remaining but couldn't find any. I did take some photos though of what I think may be anti-tank installations in the document reference by rileyrob
Perth - River Tay - Possible Anti-tank measures.jpg
Perth - River Tay - Possible Anti-tank measures.jpg (44.73 KiB) Viewed 995 times
Education makes the wise slightly wiser, but it makes the fool vastly more dangerous. N. Taleb
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KeithW
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Re: A fourth Tay Bridge in Perth in 1948?

Post by KeithW »

cb a1 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 09:05 Separately, I went out last night to see if I could see any hint of the bridge remaining but couldn't find any. I did take some photos though of what I think may be anti-tank installations in the document reference by rileyrob
Perth - River Tay - Possible Anti-tank measures.jpg
That would be a classic location for a Spigot Mortar mount.
http://www.pillbox-study-group.org.uk/o ... ot-mortar/
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