Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

Post by KeithW »

JohnnyMo wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 15:14
Either the B6275 was the best route between the A68 & Scotch Corner, in which case it should have been given a A number in 1923 or the main Essential Traffic Route to Edinburgh used a minor road.

I am well aware that the A1 was renumbered A167 when the A1(M) was built in the 1960's, and in the 1940's most passengers and freight when by rail.
It was judged to be the most suitable for military traffic in WW2 which is a different issue entirely. Do you really think routing tank transporters, ammunition, explosives and towed artillery through the centre of Darlington would be good idea ?

An infantry division on the move could be a mile long transporting 11,000 men and consist of nearly 2000 vehicles
An armoured division would typically consist of 350 main battle tanks; 1160 light cruisers, 108 light tanks, 58 heavy cruisers, and 24 close support tanks. In addition the support troops (mechanics, armourers etc) would be in trucks. A division could take a full day to pass through one point on the journey. When the 50th Tyne Tees Division set off for the D-Day embarkation ports it was hugely complex logistical operation.
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Steven wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 17:22
rileyrob wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 16:52 Interesting that many of the routes don't exclusively follow the MOT numbering, whether this is to avoid towns or whether it is a reflection of the routes seeing more traffic at the time?
I suspect that to answer that question we need to go back to the point of the system. Clearly it was for War Office use, so therefore the routes have to be suitable for relevant traffic and probably military convoys. Therefore it may well be the case that where a suitable route existed that could avoid taking the convoy through urban areas existed, then that was chosen instead. It's also worth considering that bomb damage was more likely in cities and industrial areas than in more rural areas.
It's all very fascinating - the 1943 date ties in with the receeding threat of invasion by the Nazis, which triggered removal of road direction signs, with preparations for the eventual invasion of Europe starting to build up, including large numbers of American and Commonwealth troops. The Corps of Military Police had a new Traffic Wing established in 1941, likely managing traffic along these Essential Traffic Routes, a role they continued in Europe after D-Day.
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

Post by delinquentwoody »

Having made a recent visit to Bletchley Park (which I very highly recommend) there was a display about the work of the dispatchers, there were hundreds of them, riding motorbikes on fixed secret routes every day to speedily hand deliver the coded messages obtained from around the country in to Bletchley. I wonder if these routes have some relation to this operation. There were old route maps on display of these routes, I wish I had read this more closely now.
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 20:23 It's all very fascinating - the 1943 date ties in with the receeding threat of invasion by the Nazis, which triggered removal of road direction signs, with preparations for the eventual invasion of Europe starting to build up, including large numbers of American and Commonwealth troops. The Corps of Military Police had a new Traffic Wing established in 1941, likely managing traffic along these Essential Traffic Routes, a role they continued in Europe after D-Day.
By 1943 there was zero chance of Germany invading the UK. The axis forces had been driven out of Africa and the allies landed in Sicily in August and Russians had begun their counterattack pushing the Germans back to the Reich. The USAAF and RAF had begun to bomb Germany day and night while the Battle of the Atlantic had turned decisively in the allies favour. American forces were starting their build up and training for the invasion of Europe joined by British Army units released from Sicily.
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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The bickering about the historical route of the A1 has been noted - please cease, take it elsewhere and talk here about the fabulous new mapping layer which is the subject of this topic.
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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It would be interesting to understand why some of these routes were designated and what was the Essential Traffic which used them. Dispatch Riders, urgent supplied, secret cargos ... ? I assume major freight, troop movements etc when by rail.
Keswick is accessible by two routes, north & south. Why Keswick was there something there ? Egremont is accessible via Carlisle, but not from the south. Penwherry Station only via the back road via Colmonel. Why a numbers spur (N21) only to Hart rather than continuing into Hartlepool?

Also did the N2 continue to Jedburgh or did it get an S number when it entered Scotland.
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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JohnnyMo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 17:39 It would be interesting to understand why some of these routes were designated and what was the Essential Traffic which used them. Dispatch Riders, urgent supplied, secret cargos ... ? I assume major freight, troop movements etc when by rail.
Keswick is accessible by two routes, north & south. Why Keswick was there something there ? Egremont is accessible via Carlisle, but not from the south. Penwherry Station only via the back road via Colmonel. Why a numbers spur (N21) only to Hart rather than continuing into Hartlepool?

Also did the N2 continue to Jedburgh or did it get an S number when it entered Scotland.
Keswick fulfilled several roles in WW2, a number of holiday facilities became evacuation centres for children from the big cities and there were a number of army camps in the region. Then of course there was the tube alloys project, the British atomic weapon project which after the war moved to Sellafield,

Cumbria like western Scotland was ideal for training including a tank training unit, Grizedale Hall was used to hold POW's, Carrock Fell mine was reopened to produce tungsten for armour, machine tools and AP shells and factory at Calgarth, near Troutbeck Bridge built Sunderland Flying Boats.

https://cumbria.gov.uk/elibrary/Content ... 124155.PDF
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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JohnnyMo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 17:39 It would be interesting to understand why some of these routes were designated and what was the Essential Traffic which used them. Dispatch Riders, urgent supplied, secret cargos ... ? I assume major freight, troop movements etc when by rail.
Keswick is accessible by two routes, north & south. Why Keswick was there something there ? Egremont is accessible via Carlisle, but not from the south. Penwherry Station only via the back road via Colmonel. Why a numbers spur (N21) only to Hart rather than continuing into Hartlepool?

Also did the N2 continue to Jedburgh or did it get an S number when it entered Scotland.

The railways were already at maximum capacity and some loads including some tanks were too large to travel that way. In 1944 entire divisions complete with all their transport were converging on southern England, not just British of course but the US and Canadian Armies as well. One of the jokes off the day was that the only thing keeping Southern England from sinking was the barrage balloons. Vast amounts of fuel had to be transported, unlike the Wehrmacht which largely depended on the horse and court the allies had 4 and 6 wheel drive trucks.

https://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/artic ... world-war/
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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JohnnyMo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 17:39 It would be interesting to understand why some of these routes were designated and what was the Essential Traffic which used them. Dispatch Riders, urgent supplied, secret cargos ... ? I assume major freight, troop movements etc when by rail.
Keswick is accessible by two routes, north & south. Why Keswick was there something there ? Egremont is accessible via Carlisle, but not from the south. Penwherry Station only via the back road via Colmonel. Why a numbers spur (N21) only to Hart rather than continuing into Hartlepool?

Also did the N2 continue to Jedburgh or did it get an S number when it entered Scotland.
The N2 was a local essential road and ended at Jedburgh
The 201 went all the way from Scotch Corner to Jedburgh, Edinburgh and ended at Stirling
The 202 ran from Penrith to Glasgow and Gourock

As for Hart I can only conjecture it was the best way to get into Hartlepool Docks without going through Billingham, Wolviston and West Hartlepool which were very minor roads at that time
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

Post by P Bellamy »

Wartime post-prang photo including what appears to be an ETR sign showing the E12 following the then A45 along Northampton Road towards Wellingborough town centre.
1074417_10151589630702462_1533752792_o.jpg
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

Post by Ross Spur »

There is a reference to "essential traffic routes" in a Lancaster Guardian news report on 10 February 1939 about Lancaster City Council's schemes for air raid precautions, billeting of refugees and National service being approved in meeting.

It came under the section for the stationing of various squads, including two demolition and rescue squads, two road repair squads, one gas squad, three water squads, three auxiliary fire brigade squads and three first aid parties.

The road repair squads were to be responsible for the repair of highways and sewers and immediate restoration of essential traffic routes damaged by high explosive bombs.

Whether the essential traffic routes were the National scheme or the Council's own scheme is not known. The report also mentioned that automatic traffic signals and bollards were not to be fully blackened out, but shaded. Various streets were to have the kerbs painted in black and white bands and any obstructions on the pavement or on the highway were to be painted white to a height of 3 feet from the ground.
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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P Bellamy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 13:51 Wartime post-prang photo including what appears to be an ETR sign showing the E12 following the then A45 along Northampton Road towards Wellingborough town centre.1074417_10151589630702462_1533752792_o.jpg
Great photo! Is that a vehicle on the wrong side presumably a GI forgetting where he was stationed I wonder?

I'm trying to work out what the white sign below says - W. D. Circular Route? Presumably, given it has the same stencilling it's also for a military purpose.
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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P Bellamy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 13:51 Wartime post-prang photo including what appears to be an ETR sign showing the E12 following the then A45 along Northampton Road towards Wellingborough town centre.
I love this! It would definitely imply that "E" was used as a prefix probably "East Midlands" or "East of England".

That's a great find. Where did you get it from?
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 16:03 I'm trying to work out what the white sign below says - W. D. Circular Route? Presumably, given it has the same stencilling it's also for a military purpose.
I read it either as W.D. or W.O. - War Department or War Office. Same difference as far as the purpose is concerned. For some reason I associate "WD" with the First rather than the Second World War, but I may be wrong on that.
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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P Bellamy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 13:51 Wartime post-prang photo including what appears to be an ETR sign showing the E12 following the then A45 along Northampton Road towards Wellingborough town centre.1074417_10151589630702462_1533752792_o.jpg
What town is that in ? Also the A45 was not a trunk road between St Neots & Northampton (1946)
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

JohnnyMo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 17:48
P Bellamy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 13:51 Wartime post-prang photo including what appears to be an ETR sign showing the E12 following the then A45 along Northampton Road towards Wellingborough town centre.1074417_10151589630702462_1533752792_o.jpg
What town is that in ? Also the A45 was not a trunk road between St Neots & Northampton (1946)
Clearly, one of the features of the wartime Essential Traffic Routes is that they didn't necessarily follow MoT trunk routes.
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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JohnnyMo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 17:48
P Bellamy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 13:51 Wartime post-prang photo including what appears to be an ETR sign showing the E12 following the then A45 along Northampton Road towards Wellingborough town centre.1074417_10151589630702462_1533752792_o.jpg
What town is that in ? Also the A45 was not a trunk road between St Neots & Northampton (1946)
Here in Wellingborough
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nCC9UgSKtWN2HPPe9
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

Post by KeithW »

JohnnyMo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 17:48
P Bellamy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 13:51 Wartime post-prang photo including what appears to be an ETR sign showing the E12 following the then A45 along Northampton Road towards Wellingborough town centre.1074417_10151589630702462_1533752792_o.jpg
What town is that in ? Also the A45 was not a trunk road between St Neots & Northampton (1946)
Wellinborough would be a good possibility, there were many airfields in the area such as RAF Podington close to the A45 near Wellingborough that were used by the USAAF from 1943 to launch daylight bombing raids on Germany. Its now Santa Pod Raceway. The drag strip runs along the main runway

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.23754 ... 6656?hl=en

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Podington
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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KeithW wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 19:13
JohnnyMo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 17:48
P Bellamy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 13:51 Wartime post-prang photo including what appears to be an ETR sign showing the E12 following the then A45 along Northampton Road towards Wellingborough town centre.1074417_10151589630702462_1533752792_o.jpg
What town is that in ? Also the A45 was not a trunk road between St Neots & Northampton (1946)
Wellinborough would be a good possibility, there were many airfields in the area such as RAF Podington close to the A45 near Wellingborough that were used by the USAAF from 1943 to launch daylight bombing raids on Germany. Its now Santa Pod Raceway. The drag strip runs along the main runway

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.23754 ... 6656?hl=en

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Podington
Not just a possibility - Wellingborough is mentioned by the poster of the photograph and the modern view of the location is in the previous post to yours.
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Re: Forgotten GB road numbering system - Essential Traffic Routes

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RichardA35 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 18:48 Here in Wellingborough
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nCC9UgSKtWN2HPPe9
I thought it looked familiar, I spent many a weekend in the 1970's watching the drag racing at Santa Pod
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