Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by jabbaboy »

Probably a controversial opinion but if we were getting a rid of NSL then I'd rather we went metric at the same time. It's the 21st century and we should come into it with road signage and if we're replacing thousands of NSL signs might aswell go all the way. I believe the USA is the only other country using them.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

jabbaboy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 21:49 Probably a controversial opinion but if we were getting a rid of NSL then I'd rather we went metric at the same time. It's the 21st century and we should come into it with road signage and if we're replacing thousands of NSL signs might aswell go all the way. I believe the USA is the only other country using them.
The cost of a change-over would be significant - but it wouldn't need to be done at one time - just legislate to allow 70/60 signs to replace NSL when the signs need renewing - the cost of changing from miles to km would be of a different order altogether.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by RJDG14 »

The national speed limit sign is essentially already an "end of additional speed restrictions" sign and so I don't think removing it or replacing it would make any difference. There are NSL repeaters on non-motorway roads with lighting that have it, but likewise lit all purpose roads with a 30 limit do not nead repeaters (though ones with 20, 40, 50 and 60 (for dual carriageway) limits do). I feel that the current rules seem on speed limit signage seem about right, though I do think there have been too many unnecessary speed limit reductions in the past few years, particularly in certain areas of the UK. About a decade ago there was a lot of discussion and hope about increasing the NSL on motorways to 80mph, and given the turn we've seen in the past few years I now think this is increasingly unlikely to happen.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by ajuk »

As others are saying there's a reason why it's a symbol and not a number, and Ireland went back from a number to a symbol for that reason. I don't think the memes work as well with a symbol.
What you could do is have a separate rural NSL sign for the lanes that looks different but functionally means the same thing.\

Of course there are councils that have stuck 30 limits on lanes where you'd struggle to get to that speed anyway. They spend thousands putting up signs and the locals say they "fort hard to that speed limit put in". Even though it's pretty much unenforcible anyway.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by DB617 »

30? Pah. I've been in lanes in Somerset that were 20, and I did not have the brass to even try that.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by KeithW »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 01:15 The national speed limit sign is essentially already an "end of additional speed restrictions" sign and so I don't think removing it or replacing it would make any difference. There are NSL repeaters on non-motorway roads with lighting that have it, but likewise lit all purpose roads with a 30 limit do not nead repeaters (though ones with 20, 40, 50 and 60 (for dual carriageway) limits do). I feel that the current rules seem on speed limit signage seem about right, though I do think there have been too many unnecessary speed limit reductions in the past few years, particularly in certain areas of the UK. About a decade ago there was a lot of discussion and hope about increasing the NSL on motorways to 80mph, and given the turn we've seen in the past few years I now think this is increasingly unlikely to happen.
Given the ACPO guidelines its extremely unlikely you would get a ticket for doing 80 unless your driving was especially egregious.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by KeithW »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 21:58 The cost of a change-over would be significant - but it wouldn't need to be done at one time - just legislate to allow 70/60 signs to replace NSL when the signs need renewing - the cost of changing from miles to km would be of a different order altogether.
Better yet leave it as it is and then you can reduce or increase the speed limit without the cost of replacing the signs. Of course with the NSL sign redefining speed in kph or knots for that matter costs nothing.
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ajuk
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by ajuk »

DB617 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 17:41 30? Pah. I've been in lanes in Somerset that were 20, and I did not have the brass to even try that.
Yes, I've seen that too in South Gloucestershire as well, I think the phrase exercise in futility comes to mind.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by FosseWay »

KeithW wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 20:02
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 21:58 The cost of a change-over would be significant - but it wouldn't need to be done at one time - just legislate to allow 70/60 signs to replace NSL when the signs need renewing - the cost of changing from miles to km would be of a different order altogether.
Better yet leave it as it is and then you can reduce or increase the speed limit without the cost of replacing the signs. Of course with the NSL sign redefining speed in kph or knots for that matter costs nothing.
Likewise with replacing 30 terminals with the European "built-up area" sign. We'd just need a similar sign to denote 20s, and the cost of metrication would be suddenly slashed. You'd only actually have to change the non-standard limits (and perhaps we could take the opportunity to get rid of some of these...).
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by Bryn666 »

ajuk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 17:14 As others are saying there's a reason why it's a symbol and not a number, and Ireland went back from a number to a symbol for that reason. I don't think the memes work as well with a symbol.
What you could do is have a separate rural NSL sign for the lanes that looks different but functionally means the same thing.\

Of course there are councils that have stuck 30 limits on lanes where you'd struggle to get to that speed anyway. They spend thousands putting up signs and the locals say they "fort hard to that speed limit put in". Even though it's pretty much unenforcible anyway.
Ireland only allows the Rural Speed Limit sign on borreens and L roads. R roads still have to be signposted as an explicit 80 km/h.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by Al__S »

I'm very much in favour of assessing and signing appropriate speed limits on every road and ditching the NSL. I know of one Scottish coucil that has even done this - Clackmannanshire - where the rural roads are now almost all 30mph or 40mph, larger B roads and A roads are often 50ph and some stretches left signed as NSL (as you're not allowed a 60mph sign on a single carriageway, as I understand)

Whilst some may scoff because Clacks is very, very small, do remember that its roads department and roads budgets are also very small, it is not (in the main) an affluent place. It is absolutely viable for all other local authority highways departments to survey and classify for speed their roads in the same manner by scaling up.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by KeithW »

Al__S wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 09:11 I'm very much in favour of assessing and signing appropriate speed limits on every road and ditching the NSL. I know of one Scottish coucil that has even done this - Clackmannanshire - where the rural roads are now almost all 30mph or 40mph, larger B roads and A roads are often 50ph and some stretches left signed as NSL (as you're not allowed a 60mph sign on a single carriageway, as I understand)

Whilst some may scoff because Clacks is very, very small, do remember that its roads department and roads budgets are also very small, it is not (in the main) an affluent place. It is absolutely viable for all other local authority highways departments to survey and classify for speed their roads in the same manner by scaling up.

This would be wildly expensive and a very protracted process. You mentioned Clackmannanshire , I live in North Yorkshire which has a population less than that of many cities but is rather large and has a matching high number of rural roads, lets do a compare and contrast.

Clackmannanshire
size : 61.4 square miles
population
Total 51,400
Density 840 per sq mi (320/km2)

North Yorkshire County Council
size : 3,1034 square miles
population
Total 1,160,000
Density 350 per sq mi (320/km2)

A large percentage of our rural roads are not only NSL but unclassified - here is an example About 15 miles long passing through one village and crossing the moors along the ridge between Rosedale and Farndale
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/D+P+G ... !3e0?hl=en

Its a cracking drivers road.

Overall in the UK this is the statistical view
2,300 miles of motorway (99% trunk, 1% principal)
29,500 miles of ‘A’ road (18% trunk, 82% principal)
18,900 miles of ‘B’ road
197,100 miles of ‘C’ and ‘U’ roads

Over 80% of roads are unclassified and they vary between narrow country lanes in the south west to some very busy routes of surprisingly high quality in the North.

Now how long do you think it would take to survey, map and assign speed limits ?
Next how much will that cost to sign bearing in mind that apart from Hutton Le Hole, Keldhome and Castleton there is very little habitation ?

Now consider a rather larger problem, the entire length of the A82 which is 167 miles long.
NSL is a very pragmatic and low cost solution - it it isn't broken don't fix it.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by IrlRon »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 09:48
ajuk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 17:14 As others are saying there's a reason why it's a symbol and not a number, and Ireland went back from a number to a symbol for that reason. I don't think the memes work as well with a symbol.
What you could do is have a separate rural NSL sign for the lanes that looks different but functionally means the same thing.\

Of course there are councils that have stuck 30 limits on lanes where you'd struggle to get to that speed anyway. They spend thousands putting up signs and the locals say they "fort hard to that speed limit put in". Even though it's pretty much unenforcible anyway.
Ireland only allows the Rural Speed Limit sign on borreens and L roads. R roads still have to be signposted as an explicit 80 km/h.
Basically it’s the old adage that some people treat the limit, at best, as a target to be hugged (if not exceeded) at all times. There was a logic that if there was a signposted 80 km/h people think that is the speed they should be driving at. Changing it to a sign similar (it’s not quite the same) to the old NSL was meant to eliminate that sort of logic. In fact it means exactly the same as an explicit 80 km/h (just like the old NSL sign, when it was in use in Ireland, was identical to an explicit 60mph - we never had the rule that it meant 70mph on a motorway or dual carriageway, motorways had an explicit 70mph).
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by RJDG14 »

I remember about 10 years ago that there was talk about raising the NSL on motorways from 70 to 80mph. Given all the roads which have had their limits lowered in recent years (for example, residential areas in some cities having limits lowered from 30 to 20, and some stretches of motorway such as the M4 around Newport having their limit cut from 70 to 50), I somehow think that this is now unlikely to happen.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:13 I remember about 10 years ago that there was talk about raising the NSL on motorways from 70 to 80mph. Given all the roads which have had their limits lowered in recent years (for example, residential areas in some cities having limits lowered from 30 to 20, and some stretches of motorway such as the M4 around Newport having their limit cut from 70 to 50), I somehow think that this is now unlikely to happen.
10 years ago, that talk of 80 was aimed at legalising the big proportion of car drivers who exceed the 70 limit - there was also talk of more rigid enforcement of the proposed 80, without the 10% APCO guideline, so that average speeds didn't increase - since the move would have achieved nothing it was abandoned.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by RJDG14 »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:23
RJDG14 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:13 I remember about 10 years ago that there was talk about raising the NSL on motorways from 70 to 80mph. Given all the roads which have had their limits lowered in recent years (for example, residential areas in some cities having limits lowered from 30 to 20, and some stretches of motorway such as the M4 around Newport having their limit cut from 70 to 50), I somehow think that this is now unlikely to happen.
10 years ago, that talk of 80 was aimed at legalising the big proportion of car drivers who exceed the 70 limit - there was also talk of more rigid enforcement of the proposed 80, without the 10% APCO guideline, so that average speeds didn't increase - since the move would have achieved nothing it was abandoned.
I think I've read in the past that the maximum that you can legally do without being fined is 10% above the speed limit, plus another 2-3mph to make adjustment for variations in speed dial calibration. In other words, you can in practice drive at up to 80 on a NSL motorway, which is the absolute maximum that you can legally do without running the risk of getting a ticket.

My dad has recently been doing 55mph on motorways, which he claims is more fuel efficient considering the high fuel prices at the moment.
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:49
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:23
RJDG14 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:13 I remember about 10 years ago that there was talk about raising the NSL on motorways from 70 to 80mph. Given all the roads which have had their limits lowered in recent years (for example, residential areas in some cities having limits lowered from 30 to 20, and some stretches of motorway such as the M4 around Newport having their limit cut from 70 to 50), I somehow think that this is now unlikely to happen.
10 years ago, that talk of 80 was aimed at legalising the big proportion of car drivers who exceed the 70 limit - there was also talk of more rigid enforcement of the proposed 80, without the 10% APCO guideline, so that average speeds didn't increase - since the move would have achieved nothing it was abandoned.
I think I've read in the past that the maximum that you can legally do without being fined is 10% above the speed limit, plus another 2-3mph to make adjustment for variations in speed dial calibration. In other words, you can in practice drive at up to 80 on a NSL motorway, which is the absolute maximum that you can legally do without running the risk of getting a ticket.

My dad has recently been doing 55mph on motorways, which he claims is more fuel efficient considering the high fuel prices at the moment.
It works slightly differently - UK speed limits are absolute, even 0.1 mph over the posted limit is illegal - however, to be practical the National Police Chiefs' Council (NPCC) which superceded the Association Chief Police Officers (ACPO) have issued guidelines that legal action is only taken if the recorded speed exceeds 10% +1 mph so that 10% +2 mph can result in action - these guidelines aren't binding on individual police forces nor on individual officers and cannot be used as a defence in court - drivers can, and have been prosecuted within 10%.

Since speedometers are legally required to run fast, no allowance for speedo error is needed
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by Chris Bertram »

The guidelines are limit+10%+2mph is the threshold for a NIP to be issued, and you will be very unlucky to be pulled below that speed. And yes, most speedos overread, with a 10% margin being legal.

So if you're in a 50 limit and insisting on sticking to that on your speedo, you could easily be doing no more than 45, while the guy in the HGV behind you who has a calibrated GPS and knows how the guidelines work is looking to get up to 56 to make decent progress towards his destination with no prospect of being pulled for it. If you're at the head of the platoon in that situation, why not pull over and let them get on with it, while retaining your sense of moral superiority?
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by SteveM »

Unless I have missed it being mentioned, there is a very good reason why the NSL is a symbol, which is that for different vehicle classes it has a different value.

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

So for goods vehicles, buses, motorhomes over 3.05t etc., the NSL is 60 on a motorway / dual carriageway. The symbol therefore avoids the need to show two different numbers. Up until recently, the NSL on a single carriageway for an HGV was 40 (it's now 50).
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Re: Should the NSL sign be abandoned?

Post by KrisW »

That’s not really a strong argument. HGV and Bus drivers have to take special training before they’re allowed drive their vehicles. Part of that training ensures that they know that their vehicles are subject to different maximum limits. Motor homes below 3.5 tonnes have exactly the same limits as cars; those over 3.5 tonnes now need you to pass an additional driving test to drive them, part of which covers the different speed limits for such vehicles.

Right now, British truck or bus drivers know that the “70” sign on the motorway entrance doesn’t apply to them. What would be different about a "60" sign on an A-road?

On metrication, cost isn’t really the problem: this isn’t as expensive as you’d think. For reference, Ireland’s speed-limit metrication cost €10 million in 2005 (£7M at the time, equivalent to £10 M now) - €5 M to change/erect 35,000 speed-limit signs, and as much again on a public awareness campaign; even if you assume that the UK (with 13x the population, but more bigger cities) would have at least 30~40x the number of signs to replace that Ireland had in 2005, you still only have a cost of £40 million to swap over, including the cost of a bigger public information campaign.

The bigger logistical problem is that the UK still signposts distances in miles and yards, and unless that was also planned to change, there’s no real logic to changing the speed signs, except as a courtesy to European visitors. Ireland’s speed-limit change came at the end of thirty years of using only km distances on new signage. Unlike the distances, the speeds had to be changed in one day.

But let’s not kid ourselves. The real barriers are political. Within the dumb faction, politicians who rely on drumming up phoney culture wars would play it as a full-frontal assault on the British soul (or some other nonsense); but more importantly, the sane and rational cohort would argue that unlike the replacement of NSL with explicit limits, which might offer some improvement in road safety, there are far better uses for £40 million in the UK right now than simply replacing one number with another on a few hundred thousand speed-limit signs.
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