Cobbled streets

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WHBM
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by WHBM »

FosseWay wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 07:44 On the subject of tarmac being laid on cobbles and then wearing off, Sheffield (surprise, surprise) goes one better. Here they haven't even bothered laying tarmac over the whole width, only the bit in the middle, so there is a car-width of cobbles down each edge.
This was a common approach in towns which once had trams. A particular piece of the tramway legislation required that the tramway operator maintain the rails, plus the road surface for 18" outside the rails, which accounts for the differences seen in old photos. Although the trams were often operated by the local municipality, there might be different departments etc leading to different rebuilding times, some older, some newer, between the centre and the sides. Other places or at other times a consistent approach would be followed.
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by jnty »

FosseWay wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 07:44 On the subject of tarmac being laid on cobbles and then wearing off, Sheffield (surprise, surprise) goes one better.

Here they haven't even bothered laying tarmac over the whole width, only the bit in the middle, so there is a car-width of cobbles down each edge. Bonus points for the utility repair that's just filled in the trench with any old crap :laugh:
This trick has been used in Edinburgh but slightly neater: https://goo.gl/maps/o9yUrwhrueUo97K5A
WHBM wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 09:41
FosseWay wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 07:44 On the subject of tarmac being laid on cobbles and then wearing off, Sheffield (surprise, surprise) goes one better. Here they haven't even bothered laying tarmac over the whole width, only the bit in the middle, so there is a car-width of cobbles down each edge.
This was a common approach in towns which once had trams. A particular piece of the tramway legislation required that the tramway operator maintain the rails, plus the road surface for 18" outside the rails, which accounts for the differences seen in old photos. Although the trams were often operated by the local municipality, there might be different departments etc leading to different rebuilding times, some older, some newer, between the centre and the sides. Other places or at other times a consistent approach would be followed.
Perhaps this is the reason a tiny segment of cable-hauled tramway survives in central Edinburgh at one end of the A1 https://goo.gl/maps/ZGTYw8PU6z5Ve3CN9
WHBM wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 21:37 Significant amounts, which I drive over daily, across London Docklands - even on bus routes. Notice the poor repairs here - stat undertakers repair crews don't really know any more how to handle them.
Repair crews often seem to mess them up but Edinburgh still does renewals so some institutional knowledge must remain. I walked to work past Henderson Street's renewal for a summer and it was fascinating watching the workers inching forward over the summer I walked past, laying one day and cutting setts the next, carefully managing changes of angle and edging. This was about a decade ago and it still seems to be in OK shape despite being a bus route: https://goo.gl/maps/ZqHxSGA8C8VSx6cNA

Really though, bus rides in Edinburgh are shoogily enough without throwing cobbles into the mix. I'm not really convinced the heritage value was worth it here for the long term unpleasantness caused to bus, bike and presumably wheelchair users. Retention of "classics" like Instagram hotspot Circus Lane should be enough with the use of setts in public real acknowledging this history elsewhere.

The Shore is the sort of place where setts 'fit' although use as a bus route/lorry loading area has absolutely ruined them. A flatter, smoother set like used on Castle Street might suit the increasingly modern and trendy feel of the area while providing a nod to history in a way that isn't a trip hazard for folk using it in the semi-pedestrianised way intended.

There was serious criticism more recently over the £1.2m renewal of the setts on Brighton Place in Portobello, by those who felt it would be a waste of money, excessively disruptive and maintain an unnecessary obstacle to cycling, particularly given this is one of the more suitable routes to cycle to the beach. As a compromise to the latter, the council provided flatter setts at the side of the road but didn't restrict parking, making them a bit useless for much of the route. I am not clear on why flatter setts at the side of the road is not a heritage disaster but using them for the whole width apparently would be.
NICK 647063 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 23:53 I’m not aware of any other cobbled A class roads other than the A684 in Hawes North Yorkshire, do we have any others it always seems unusual.
The closest I can find in Edinburgh is this section, signed (A90) in central Edinburgh - it isn't quite the A90 but may as well be for general traffic and is quite surprising. Part of the original cobbles have been tarmac'd over presumably as a result of getting trashed by the routing of general traffic this way in one of the traffic re-organisations earlier this century.

Queensferry High Street, a B road, is setted and cobbled I think. Or are they just small setts?
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Bryn666
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by Bryn666 »

Edinburgh really wants to maintain that "Scottish Disneyland" stereotype it seems - I remember many years ago being staggered by Randolph Crescent, thinking I'd slipped back to about 1971. https://goo.gl/maps/wN9CxBTQtDPrZ4rg9
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jnty
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by jnty »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:06 Edinburgh really wants to maintain that "Scottish Disneyland" stereotype it seems - I remember many years ago being staggered by Randolph Crescent, thinking I'd slipped back to about 1971. https://goo.gl/maps/wN9CxBTQtDPrZ4rg9
Yeah, that's the other half of the (A90) cobbled section. It has the feel of a temporary diversion but really is the main route between central Edinburgh and the M90. Perhaps there was an implicit plan to resurface if the re-routing 'stuck' - that era of Edinburgh traffic engineering was quite experimental and fluid - but it's never happened. Road markings don't show up well on the cobbles either which makes negotiating the right turn there 'fun', especially since it goes 2 to 3 lanes and to understand where lane two is meant to go you have to sort of logically work out from detailed knowledge of the surroundings that you'd never usually need to turn into lane 3 as it ends you back up when you started. Hard to explain that to the side of a van muscling you into it, though!
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Re: Cobbled streets

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jnty wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:53 Queensferry High Street, a B road, is setted and cobbled I think. Or are they just small setts?
That's appalling ! The stat undertaker has ruined the European Fan pattern (described in my link above), which will have cost the authority something to lay, as there aren't a lot of skilled craftsmen around who can do it. It seems they have done a series of exploratory holes, then just bunged in blacktop.

Others can advise what remedy is available to the highways authority to enforce reinstatement as found, or to recharge remediation works.

Just to show such incompetence is not confined to Britain, here's a photo I took of a street blockwork reinstatement in Amsterdam !
AMS.JPG
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Ruperts Trooper
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

WHBM wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:50
jnty wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:53 Queensferry High Street, a B road, is setted and cobbled I think. Or are they just small setts?
That's appalling ! The stat undertaker has ruined the European Fan pattern (described in my link above), which will have cost the authority something to lay, as there aren't a lot of skilled craftsmen around who can do it. It seems they have done a series of exploratory holes, then just bunged in blacktop.

Others can advise what remedy is available to the highways authority to enforce reinstatement as found, or to recharge remediation works.

Just to show such incompetence is not confined to Britain, here's a photo I took of a street blockwork reinstatement in Amsterdam !

AMS.JPG
The repeated failure of utilities to finish trenches and holes to an acceptable standard is a major hate for me - my health and disability mean that I notice difficulty with every change of level on footpaths and it doesn't make for a smooth ride in the car on the roads either - I guess that cut-backs in highway authorities and local authorities means that less time is spent inspecting work by utilities and less effort in getting rectification work done.
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jnty
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by jnty »

WHBM wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:50
jnty wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:53 Queensferry High Street, a B road, is setted and cobbled I think. Or are they just small setts?
That's appalling !
In fairness I think the whole thing was due to be re-done when the pandemic hit - sounds like works are now underway judging by the usual moans from shopkeepers that the millions of pounds of public realm investment happening on their doorstep during a materials and labour crisis is taking a bit longer than they thought it might.
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FosseWay
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by FosseWay »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 13:10 The repeated failure of utilities to finish trenches and holes to an acceptable standard is a major hate for me - my health and disability mean that I notice difficulty with every change of level on footpaths and it doesn't make for a smooth ride in the car on the roads either - I guess that cut-backs in highway authorities and local authorities means that less time is spent inspecting work by utilities and less effort in getting rectification work done.
Absolutely. I don't have any health or mobility problems, but it is at best uncomfortable cycling over poor reinstatements, and in some cases downright dangerous.

The other issue, which by personal experience is worse in Sweden than the UK, is the use of "temporary" reinstatements that hang around for weeks. I think this kind of thing has been cracked down on in the UK, with fines for overrunning, but here it's entirely normal for utilities to temporarily backfill a trench with whatever comes to hand and then sod off on holiday or wait for hell to freeze over.

Someone needs to remind everyone who uses the highway for reasons other than travelling that (a) the public highway is just that, primarily for the public, and (b) that it is a highway, i.e. its principal purpose is to facilitate travel. Other things - be it utility replacement, scaffolding erection on buildings alongside, skips, litter bins, parked vehicles, lemonade stands, planters strategically placed to slow drivers down - all of those may be broadly desirable, but it is secondary to the primary purpose and should therefore take a lesser priority. When it comes to utilities digging holes, that means at a minimum doing it as quickly as possible and reinstating the surface as it was before (or better).
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by yen_powell »

One of my friends is currently riding his motorbike in France with the specific aim of riding on their cobbled lane network he'd heard about.
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Big Nick
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by Big Nick »

Your friend must be bouncing along those lanes! :lol:

When I took a tour of the WW1 battlefields our guide talked about the soldiers marching along the paved roads like these to reach the front lines. When we went for dinner in Ypres I ordered a large steak and was presented with un pavé, an inch thick slab of meat the size of one of those stones. Very tasty it was too.
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by KeithW »

Henrietta Street in Whitby is surfaced with Setts
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.4890432 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by yen_powell »

I still lay setts occasionally when the road is suitable for it. This road had a big problem with a very narrow footway and parked cars. The refuse vehicles were having to drive up the street with one set of wheels on the footway. I rejigged it so it was all one level with granite setts in the middle, York stone paving outside the houses and smooth granite sets on the opposite footway to allow the refuse vehicles to over run it. I put guards around the lamp columns first.
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https://goo.gl/maps/C9G67h6mmdwHb6df7
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https://goo.gl/maps/QoQqQqLtj445SgMZ7
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Chris5156
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by Chris5156 »

yen_powell wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 09:10 I still lay setts occasionally when the road is suitable for it. This road had a big problem with a very narrow footway and parked cars. The refuse vehicles were having to drive up the street with one set of wheels on the footway. I rejigged it so it was all one level with granite setts in the middle, York stone paving outside the houses and smooth granite sets on the opposite footway to allow the refuse vehicles to over run it. I put guards around the lamp columns first.
That’s a beautiful job!
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by yen_powell »

Thank you

Next sett job is to relay a zillion setts in Spitalfields some time next year. They were taken up and stored a few years ago by a developer and are currently sitting in a yard in Gravesend awaiting my inspection to see if they are still there and cleaned and stored properly. Some will be relaid outside Dan Cruickshank's house so I expect to have him checking out that we do it properly.
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Re: Cobbled streets

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Not so beautiful is what remains of the Deterrent Paving I designed (one drawing only) along the M8 in Glasgow. First job out of university. It was installed 1970s, several years after the road was opened in a "landscaping" that used up some remaining budget. It seems to have worn down a lot.

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.8669656 ... 384!8i8192

And thereby hangs a tale ...

Supervising was the principal architectural technician, an older chap, stereotypical Glaswegian, who went out periodically to sign off that the works were "As Drawing". And when it was being installed some months later, he took me along. Now, he was at the time smarting from a reprimand letter the office had received about him. It seems a couple of weeks previously he had actually spoken to the site labourers and told them they were doing it wrong. This had come up through their foreman, the site manager, the contractors' QS, the client, and on upward, until the letter had been received that site staff were not to be addressed like this, everything was to be done by letter through the formal channels.

So when we got there, the deterrent paving was actually being laid out. This involves wet concrete, and large bags of flat pebbles, which are placed by hand. The labourer was getting stuck in to the job.

"Ye see this now, son. Now don't get too close, stand back here, like we're just passing. That deterrent paving has to be laid with the pebbles spiky end upwards, and close together, so ye canna walk across it. He's just layin' them flat, it'll take half the time but that's wrong. Now ye know that letter we all saw, I canna speak to anyone here, I have to write next Monday. Aye, it'll all have tae be drilled up and done again. Aye. Leave him to it, son ...".

And we did.
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A303Chris
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by A303Chris »

Guildford High Street is a cobbled street and was totally relaid in 2016/17. The cost was shared between Surrey CC (the highway authority), Guildford Borough and the local business partnership given the expense.

However it is a pedestrian zone 10am to 6pm, and gated to prevent access, but, the cobbles are not the easiest to walk on!!!!

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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by ellandback »

Just one of many examples in and around Halifax.

Very effective for traffic 'calming', without the annoyance of speed bumps.
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Re: Cobbled streets

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ellandback wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 13:25 Very effective for traffic 'calming', without the annoyance of speed bumps.
The downside in urban areas is the increased vehicle noise compared to running on asphalt. In traditionally cobbled towns, asphalting around hospitals was normal.
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by dseagull »

When Cobbles Go Wrong....

Admittedly - not proper cobbles. The local rumour was they were something out of the Marshalls catalogue usually sold for driveways.

https://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/news/vi ... ry-1036909
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Re: Cobbled streets

Post by yen_powell »

dseagull wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 14:38 When Cobbles Go Wrong....

Admittedly - not proper cobbles. The local rumour was they were something out of the Marshalls catalogue usually sold for driveways.

https://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/news/vi ... ry-1036909
They look like Tegula concrete blocks laid in some random bond. I can't see how they would lock together properlyl, especially if the sand is washing out as per the article. My local high street had them and they would rattle every time the bus passed over them, they were all loose.
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