A3222 / M27 junction 10

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SteveM
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A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by SteveM »

Orders published for the M27 junction 10 and linking roads on Hampshire County Council's website

https://www.hants.gov.uk/transport/tran ... junction10

The link road between the west-facing slips and the existing A32 is to be classified A3222. To me, that's pointless and it should be classified as an A32 spur. Why have a different 'A' road number for moves which are in effect within the junction extent?

Or as an even more radical idea, terminate the A32 on junction 10, and classify the existing A32 south of the M27 into Gosport as the A3222. :stir:
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A303Chris
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by A303Chris »

Why does the eastbound off need to be signalised, surely it could be designed, to have two single lanes free flowing into the roundabout.

And why remove the existing loop for the westbound off, that could have stayed instead of quadrupling the distance from the westbound carriageway to the A32 northbound.

It seems to me all they needed were a westbound on and eastbound off. Why over complicate things.
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SteveM
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by SteveM »

Chris - I think the removal of the loop is so that NMUs don't have to cross the off-slip but can carry on up the west side of the A32 into Welborne and on to Wickham. It's a bit of a nightmare at the moment if you're on foot - traffic coming round the corner at NSL doesn't give you long to get out of the way. There's no onward footway north at present, desperately needed but needs to be safe which it isn't with the current layout. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.86588 ... 384!8i8192

PS have you noticed that Pook Lane (the little lane that runs eastwards from the A32 from within the eastbound diverge) is blocked off? With no (in this iteration) replacement route (I think in the overall plan a link road within the development connects Pook Lane into the existing roundabout at Knowle Road). What if that link is delayed?
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jackal
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by jackal »

There would be much easier and cheaper ways of providing NMU access.

The more likely explanation is that they were trying to design the worst motorway junction in the UK - and they might just have done it.
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by astondb9 »

Are those dual carriageway zebra crossings? Next to a motorway junction? Was this designed by a toddler?
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Bryn666
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 09:55 There would be much easier and cheaper ways of providing NMU access.

The more likely explanation is that they were trying to design the worst motorway junction in the UK - and they might just have done it.
It's pretty dire, even by my low expectations from highway designers working on the coin of developers.
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A303Chris
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by A303Chris »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:25
jackal wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 09:55 There would be much easier and cheaper ways of providing NMU access.

The more likely explanation is that they were trying to design the worst motorway junction in the UK - and they might just have done it.
It's pretty dire, even by my low expectations from highway designers working on the coin of developers.
Thing is these are designs by Hampshire CC's own staff. One thing I notice working in Hampshire is on developers schemes for S278's they are very strict and let nothing go.

However when let loose on their own anything goes. They are also working on options to provide access to development land north of the A27 between Emsworth and Havant at Southliegh Farm. This junction feasibility report was produce by Hampshire for Havant Borough.

Basically they are looking at a link from the Warblington junction to the site after National Highways said any new junction from the A27 would have to be grade separated , which given its shortly after the 4 lane A27 section and two grade separated junctions, makes complete sense. But when you look at the options section, there preference was an at grade roundabout, given the Chichester by pass nine miles to the east had roundabouts at grade.

This in my opinion just shows that lack of experience in Highway Authorities, and if the A40 were still trunked a silly roundabout would not appeared on the Witney bypass and a grade separated junction would have been needed using the existing bridge.
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Chris5156
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by Chris5156 »

A303Chris wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 13:54Thing is these are designs by Hampshire CC's own staff. One thing I notice working in Hampshire is on developers schemes for S278's they are very strict and let nothing go.

However when let loose on their own anything goes.
I now live in Hampshire and the work of Hampshire Highways is a real mixed bag. Some of their work is good - maintenance is generally decent, for example. But they have a real problem with sign clutter. I regularly drive five miles up to the nearest town on a fairly standard S2 through the countryside, which was littered with a continuous parade of warning signs, mostly irrelevant or duplicates, which has been added to every couple of months with even more signs going up.

My other issue is with urban schemes. We are in the era of LTN 1/20, so designing for active travel should be to this new standard, but the memo has yet to reach county HQ in Winchester. I live in a town that's undergoing significant regeneration, and a lot of the work is happening with "eco town" funding and similar things - it's meant to be a walkable, cyclable, sustainable redevelopment. We got a bypass which is supposed to allow the old main road through the town to be reconditioned with a lower speed limit and better active travel provision. But for whatever reason, as they make those changes, HCC are still designing and installing some real rubbish - it's all shared-use footpaths; cycle lanes that push you onto the pavement to cross side roads at traffic lights with the pedestrian phases; "cyclists dismount" signs; barriers herding pedestrians through multi-stage crossings, or even traffic signals with no pedestrian lights at all; chicane barriers on paths signposted as cycle routes... it would all have been quite progressive in about 1995 but it's seriously backwards for things they are actively installing now.

So yes, in-house highway design is maybe not their strongest discipline.
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jackal
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by jackal »

They Havant a clue :wink:
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by Chris5156 »

jackal wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 23:35 They Havant a clue :wink:
He’s here all week! Try the fish :laugh:
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by jackal »

:D

The most disturbing thing about the document A303Chris linked is actually Highways England's insistence that there must be no new slip roads. They're okay with additional developments, as long as there's no additional capacity to handle it...
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by Fluid Dynamics »

I grew up in this general neck of the woods. This was originally the terminal junction of the Havant bypass and was laid out quite differently. Like the other junctions, it was laid out as a large roundabout, but not grade separated. Ultimately when the Havant to Chichester section was added the the Warblington junction, like Broadmarsh when the A3(M) tied in, was changed to a dumbbell arrangement. I wonder if the original arranging if it had been grade separated would have presented better opportunities?
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by SteveM »

A303Chris wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 13:54
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:25
jackal wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 09:55 There would be much easier and cheaper ways of providing NMU access.

The more likely explanation is that they were trying to design the worst motorway junction in the UK - and they might just have done it.
It's pretty dire, even by my low expectations from highway designers working on the coin of developers.
Thing is these are designs by Hampshire CC's own staff. One thing I notice working in Hampshire is on developers schemes for S278's they are very strict and let nothing go.

However when let loose on their own anything goes. They are also working on options to provide access to development land north of the A27 between Emsworth and Havant at Southleigh Farm. This junction feasibility report was produce by Hampshire for Havant Borough.

Basically they are looking at a link from the Warblington junction to the site after National Highways said any new junction from the A27 would have to be grade separated , which given its shortly after the 4 lane A27 section and two grade separated junctions, makes complete sense. But when you look at the options section, their preference was an at grade roundabout, given the Chichester by pass nine miles to the east had roundabouts at grade.

This in my opinion just shows that lack of experience in Highway Authorities, and if the A40 were still trunked a silly roundabout would not appeared on the Witney bypass and a grade separated junction would have been needed using the existing bridge.
Actually the report is quite clear that the roundabout option (along with signals and hamburger) was discussed but discounted (14.2, page 25). That's what feasibility studies do - they look at every option and then discuss / discount / progress. And the report was carried out by Havant Borough Council itself, not Hampshire. The preference in the report is option 1, moving the eastbound on-slip north of the railway, and using the route of the current on-slip as a 2-way link from the existing junction into the development site. The preferred option '1B' is now an iteration of option 1, which is discussed (with layout plans) on the Havant Civic Society website
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jackal
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by jackal »

"VolkerFitzpatrick wins £80m M27 junction improvement"

Half from Homes England, half from the developer.

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/ ... mrpovement
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by jackal »

VMSL consultation:

https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... -consulta/

The URL includes "copy-of-m6j19-exit-slip-roads-speed-limit-consulta"...
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by GeekyJames »

Funding setback on this crazy scheme - I guess it'll still happen eventually.

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/239880 ... w-setback/
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jackal
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by jackal »

^ Outbreak of common sense?
Now, county chiefs have confirmed that no further funding is expected from National Highways or the Department of Transport to “help” the council bridge the financial gap.

Their reasoning was that it “does not provide any benefit” for the M27.
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by silverfoxcc »

Is there any reason why the numbering will be in the A322x series when all the other A32x roads are miles away around Reading/Bracknell/Ascot/Slough?
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Bryn666
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 22:42 ^ Outbreak of common sense?
Now, county chiefs have confirmed that no further funding is expected from National Highways or the Department of Transport to “help” the council bridge the financial gap.

Their reasoning was that it “does not provide any benefit” for the M27.
This is dangerously close to a sensible answer. Has someone changed the water at the Facilitation for Stupid Development section of NH?
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Fluid Dynamics
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Re: A3222 / M27 junction 10

Post by Fluid Dynamics »

Perhaps they could save money by leaving the current junction as it is, drop the new westbound exit slip and just build the new junction with east facing slips. I'm sure that's better for the environmentally nd better than incovieniencing Alton and Wickham traffic by extending their journey in length and by adding extra roundabouts that will conflict with the new development.
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