Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

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IAN
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Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by IAN »

Maybe this should be in the 'Fantasy Roads'section but the idea has been seriously suggested by a Welsh Tory MS - Can you just imagine the prospect of putting a motorway through Snowdonia!

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/buil ... u8gyipMtDo
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Euan »

I would imagine that there would have to be quite an extensive Welsh motorway network in place already by the time something like were to ever come about - it seems unrealistic that a single spinal motorway could be beneficial for the entire breadth of both north and south Wales. It would be hard to please people in Bangor, Wrexham, Swansea and Newport all at the same time without some sort of stickman-figure-like network of motorways.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by trickstat »

IAN wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 09:31 Maybe this should be in the 'Fantasy Roads'section but the idea has been seriously suggested by a Welsh Tory MS - Can you just imagine the prospect of putting a motorway through Snowdonia!

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/buil ... u8gyipMtDo
...and the Brecon Beacons!
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by SouthWest Philip »

The most realistic corridor for a north-south motorway, or at least HQDC, in Wales would probably be via A470/A483 from Cardiff to Chester. (Which would mean going through the Brecon Beacons NP.) The A465 would provide the link to Swansea at the southern end.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Chris5156 »

IAN wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 09:31 Maybe this should be in the 'Fantasy Roads'section but the idea has been seriously suggested by a Welsh Tory MS - Can you just imagine the prospect of putting a motorway through Snowdonia!

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/buil ... u8gyipMtDo
It does feel more like a fantasy road suggestion. Given that the WG couldn’t afford the new Newport Bypass, and that it is now halting all road building on environmental grounds, there is neither the money nor the inclination to do any such thing. It’s surely just an attempt to score some points and get this politician’s name in the papers.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by SteelCamel »

Euan wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 09:51 I would imagine that there would have to be quite an extensive Welsh motorway network in place already by the time something like were to ever come about - it seems unrealistic that a single spinal motorway could be beneficial for the entire breadth of both north and south Wales. It would be hard to please people in Bangor, Wrexham, Swansea and Newport all at the same time without some sort of stickman-figure-like network of motorways.
There's a network of sorts. The M4 crosses South Wales, and the A55 crosses North Wales. The A55 isn't a motorway, but it's a high-spec road and parts of it are a motorway in everything but name (special road restricted to class I and II). Linking them together would make sense from a network point of view - but there's a lot of mountains in the way! The most practical route looks to be to go up the Severn, then down the Dee - which is not far off the route of the M5/M6.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by jackal »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:47
IAN wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 09:31 Maybe this should be in the 'Fantasy Roads'section but the idea has been seriously suggested by a Welsh Tory MS - Can you just imagine the prospect of putting a motorway through Snowdonia!

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/buil ... u8gyipMtDo
It does feel more like a fantasy road suggestion. Given that the WG couldn’t afford the new Newport Bypass, and that it is now halting all road building on environmental grounds, there is neither the money nor the inclination to do any such thing. It’s surely just an attempt to score some points and get this politician’s name in the papers.
They could afford the Newport Bypass but didn't want it. So yes, there's not the inclination.

Leaving inclination aside it would be feasible. The Swiss did the equivalent several times over. But in the here and now it is more of a priority to fill the glaring gaps in the network... like the lack of a Newport Bypass.
Last edited by jackal on Sat Jul 23, 2022 17:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Big L »

Go the French way and build an elevated motorway just off shore. Extend the M4 out to Pembroke and head north up Cardigan Bay from there. Nice and flat.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Bryn666 »

They might as well build a spur to the moon whilst they're at it.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by SteelCamel »

Big L wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 17:42 Go the French way and build an elevated motorway just off shore. Extend the M4 out to Pembroke and head north up Cardigan Bay from there. Nice and flat.
Wouldn't be the first time that was proposed - https://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/m13/
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by rhyds »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:47
IAN wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 09:31 Maybe this should be in the 'Fantasy Roads'section but the idea has been seriously suggested by a Welsh Tory MS - Can you just imagine the prospect of putting a motorway through Snowdonia!

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/buil ... u8gyipMtDo
It does feel more like a fantasy road suggestion. Given that the WG couldn’t afford the new Newport Bypass, and that it is now halting all road building on environmental grounds, there is neither the money nor the inclination to do any such thing. It’s surely just an attempt to score some points and get this politician’s name in the papers.
This.

In short there's "talking about thinking about how to possibly fund North-South Rail" in the next transport plan (translated: "Plaid wants everyone to think there's a chance of re opening the Aberystwyth-Carmarthen line and finding £800m from somewhere to do it"), so a quick headline grabber is for the Welsh Tories to call for their own "bridge to Ireland".

Thing is, as everyone else has pointed out, any kind of N/S dualled route runs in to the same problems that N/S rail does, in that the centre bit of Wales is very mountainous and you're not serving any really big towns. TBH just sorting out the remaining bottlenecks on the A470 (Builth-> Brecon low standard, Rheadr bypass of some kind, TOTSO sorting) would do the job fine.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by fras »

At the rate they're going in Wales, they'll be back to the 17th century soon. 20 mph on all roads not just urban is no doubt next.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by M56phil »

It’s pretty realistic this will never happen due to the sheer cost and terrain. Plus I don’t think a D2M would be necessary from say Snowdonia down to Swansea / Cardiff. The traffic volumes don’t justify it.

However, saying that - links between north and South Wales are pretty poor.

Best solution I think is to somehow link the D2 end of the A470 at Merthyr to the end of the A483 south of Wrexham. As they are two good quality D2’s

I mix of a few D2 sections and good quality S2 would I think suffice. The section between Merthyr and Newtown I think would be the biggest challenge in terms of geography and terrain.

Also give the road a single new number perhaps?
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by WHBM »

fras wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 09:45 At the rate they're going in Wales, they'll be back to the 17th century soon. 20 mph on all roads not just urban is no doubt next.
Of course, that will divert all north-south Welsh traffic through England, up the A49.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by trickstat »

WHBM wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:07
fras wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 09:45 At the rate they're going in Wales, they'll be back to the 17th century soon. 20 mph on all roads not just urban is no doubt next.
Of course, that will divert all north-south Welsh traffic through England, up the A49.
Isn't the fastest route between Cardiff and Caernarvon already via the M5, M6 and A55?
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by rhyds »

trickstat wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:30
WHBM wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:07
fras wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 09:45 At the rate they're going in Wales, they'll be back to the 17th century soon. 20 mph on all roads not just urban is no doubt next.
Of course, that will divert all north-south Welsh traffic through England, up the A49.
Isn't the fastest route between Cardiff and Caernarvon already via the M5, M6 and A55?
The fastest way from Cardiff to Caernarvon is M4 and A34 down towards Highclere Castle. He's in a hole in the ground somewhere around there

For Caernarfon, the route through Mid Wales via the A470 is still the best bet. M5/M6 is terrible around Birmingham and while the A49 is better, by now there's more places needing bypasses on that route than on the A470 (Hereford for example).
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by fras »

rhyds wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:56
trickstat wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:30
WHBM wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:07
Of course, that will divert all north-south Welsh traffic through England, up the A49.
Isn't the fastest route between Cardiff and Caernarvon already via the M5, M6 and A55?
The fastest way from Cardiff to Caernarvon is M4 and A34 down towards Highclere Castle. He's in a hole in the ground somewhere around there

For Caernarfon, the route through Mid Wales via the A470 is still the best bet. M5/M6 is terrible around Birmingham and while the A49 is better, by now there's more places needing bypasses on that route than on the A470 (Hereford for example).
Having driven the A49 as far south as Hereford, my advice is don't use it if you're in anything like a hurry. Hereford, where my late brother lived, is a constant traffic jam during the day.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by trickstat »

rhyds wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:56
trickstat wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:30
WHBM wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:07
Of course, that will divert all north-south Welsh traffic through England, up the A49.
Isn't the fastest route between Cardiff and Caernarvon already via the M5, M6 and A55?
The fastest way from Cardiff to Caernarvon is M4 and A34 down towards Highclere Castle. He's in a hole in the ground somewhere around there

For Caernarfon, the route through Mid Wales via the A470 is still the best bet. M5/M6 is terrible around Birmingham and while the A49 is better, by now there's more places needing bypasses on that route than on the A470 (Hereford for example).
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by ajuk »

They can't even put sporadic sections of overtaking lane on the A470 despite many upgrades. According to Google maps the A470 isn't even the quickest north - south route all the way, at one point it wants me to use the B4518 and another the A487 and A496. :confused:
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Bryn666 »

The WG moratorium on road building specifically exempted schemes that improve road safety, so the A470 is likely to see further work as time goes on.

The reason they canned Newport is because it's simply going to create shedloads more traffic at Cardiff and not actually solve much, much like building any new motorway without strict planning controls around it doesn't (see the number of tin sheds that now screw up roads like the M65). The transport needs of mid-Wales are different to those of former Glamorgan.

My cynic says the only reason the Severn Bridge tolls were axed was so Johnson could justify forcing the Newport Bypass on Wales (thus winning lots of English 2nd Home Owner Votes) by shifting the obvious M4 bottleneck 5 miles further west. Whereas I also think the WG have cut their nose off to spite their face a little bit in order to say "FU England, we make our own decisions here".

Basically a masterclass in why politicians should be prohibited from making decisions unless accompanied by a responsible adult.
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