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RJDG14 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:31
There is nothing on that sign to prohibit L-drivers either, although I know in England that the law was recently changed to allow them on motorways under the supervision of a driving instructor. I think with regards to tractors that regardless of whether they are allowed or not, the prohibitions are likely less rigidly enforced on roads such as the AWPR, A1 east of Edinburgh and A55 around Colwyn Bay than what they are on standard motorways.
One road that I see relatively little reason for most of it (with the exception of the part directly linking to the M5) to be a motorway these days would be the M50 - it has narrow hard shoulders that cease at most bridges, a LILO junction and feels noticeably more rural and has less traffic than nearly every other motorway in the UK. It's not particularly long either and takes only about 20 minutes to travel down. It's among the oldest motorways and I think was originally designed as a route between the West Midlands and South Wales prior to the opening of the M4 (now M48) Severn Bridge a few years later. Today it feels far more like a slightly neglected piece of a grade separated D2 trunk route in terms of standard and traffic.
L-drivers aren't a class of traffic for the purposes of Special Roads, though. That restriction is instead in The Motorways Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982 - As amended in 2018
So it's entirely legitimate for learners to use such roads.
Some of the "NO" signs on some of them (such as the A55 one that the OP posted) mention L-drivers, though. Is this restriction unenforceable, I assume?
In terms of all purpose roads, a lit NSL stretch has to display NSL repeaters while an unlit 30mph stretch has to display 30 repeaters. In the case of motorways, all stretches are 70mph unless otherwise stated.
One slightly weird usage of a 60mph sign in England would be where the A417 narrows down to a single carriageway travelling south in the direction of Crickley Hill:
It is not a special road and the 60mph limit would be applicable regardless of any signage, which makes me wonder why the decision was made to add this sign, probably when the stretch was built in the late 1990s (it was definitely there in the mid 2000s). The only other uses of the 60 sign that I can think of would be on stretches of D2 where it was decided that 70mph/NSL was unsafe, or S2 stretches of special roads.
Last edited by RJDG14 on Thu Aug 11, 2022 13:34, edited 1 time in total.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:24Would the speed limit on the rare S2 stretches of motorway in England by default be 60mph like on a non-motorway stretch of S2? The former A6144(M) today has a 50mph limit but I think this was only introduced at the time it was downgraded - I think it was subject to whatever the NSL was before this.
NSL is specified separately in law for motorways and all purpose roads, so the speed limit distinction between single and dual carriageway doesn’t exist on motorways, nor does the distinction between lit and unlit roads. All roads under motorway regulations have a limit of 70mph unless specified otherwise.
Which is exactly why non-motorway Special Roads have their speed limits specified in their SIs, as they're not defined clearly in law elsewhere. Which is why the A55 has 70mph signage as you enter the Special Road sections (and I mean sections, there's the random 70mph signage where the two separate Special Roads join) rather than NSL - as NSL is meaningless in this case.
The interesting one is to ask what speed limit is applicable for HGVs on a non-motorway Special Road which has a specific limit stated in its SI that's above the class limit. There are two schools of thought - one is that the RTRA counts anyway, so class limits apply, the other is that it's clearly 70mph for all classes. You'd have to be pretty darned brave to test which one it is in court.
Steven
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Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner
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Brenley Corner wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 13:34
The A249 Sheppey Crossing also has similar restrictions so is, I asssume, a Special Road but has no learner restrictions.
I can't find anything about it being a special road, though there are still non-special roads with usage restrictions. I think in the case of them, legislation needs to be passed to explicitly prohibit certain classes of vehicle, whereas for special roads, the legislation explicitly allows certain types of vehicles while prohibiting all others instead. As far as the signage is concerned both can look similar although you're unlikely to see 70 signs unless it's a special road.
The special stretch of A1 between Dunbar and Edinburgh appears to make no mention of learners. Something else that I find weird about the stretch would be that there are no clearway signs at entrances to it from roads that definitely aren't clearways, nor is there any mention of "no stopping" on the NO signs. As a result, would it be legal to stop on it, even though pedestrians and cyclists are prohibited from using it? Most of the other similar stretches of special road do have clearway signage. It also has laybys which have signs saying "emergency layby" instead of "P" but the signs still make no explicit mention of "no stopping except in an emerency".
Last edited by RJDG14 on Thu Aug 11, 2022 13:49, edited 1 time in total.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 13:20
Some of the "NO" signs on some of them (such as the A55 one that the OP posted) mention L-drivers, though. Is this restriction unenforceable, I assume?
In terms of all purpose roads, a lit NSL stretch has to display NSL repeaters while an unlit 30mph stretch has to display 30 repeaters. In the case of motorways, all stretches are 70mph unless otherwise stated.
One slightly weird usage of a 60mph sign in England would be where the A417 narrows down to a single carriageway travelling south in the direction of Crickley Hill:
It is not a special road and the 60mph limit would be applicable regardless of any signage, which makes me wonder why the decision was made to add this sign, probably when the stretch was built in the late 1990s (it was definitely there in the mid 2000s). The only other uses of the 60 sign that I can think of would be on stretches of D2 where it was decided that 70mph/NSL was unsafe, or S2 stretches of special roads.
solocle wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:22
Well, there's nothing to indicate that they are prohibited!
Indeed - like I say, nice and clear! I guess they just need to somehow know that they're not permitted...
There was some talk in the local press about it at the time of opening (though this article is particularly bad as it talks about the "northbound AWPR" when in fact it's referring to the "A90 Balmedie - Tipperty", which was built alongside the AWPR but is not part of it).
A Transport Scotland spokesman commented: “The AWPR/B-T is neither a motorway or dual carriageway, it is designated as a special road. As such, agricultural vehicles need to meet specific conditions to travel on the road. The consequences of a special road designation were considered at a Public Local Inquiry in 2008.
“The road has been progressed on the basis of the orders presented at the PLI. One of these conditions prevents agricultural vehicles from travelling more than 1.5km between farm land, unless they are being used for horticultural purposes such as trimming verges.
“We understand that this means that it is not possible to meet this distance criterion on the new road. However, as strategic traffic will transfer from the existing road network to the AWPR, we expect to see significant journey time savings on local roads, generating significant benefits for agricultural use.”
So technically they are not actually prohibited, but in practice they are because there's no access to farmland from the AWPR. Clear as mud!
A Transport Scotland spokesman commented: “The AWPR/B-T is neither a motorway or dual carriageway, it is designated as a special road.
I'd be interested to know what they think a dual carriageway is, if they think the AWPR isn't one...
I think they meant "all purpose road" instead of "dual carriageway" (the majority of A-road dual carriageways are all purpose).
I would place these special roads in a category about halfway between standard all purpose roads and motorways. In terms of standard, they are generally near identical to what newer grade separated all purpose roads are, though they have restrictions similar (but not identical to) motorways.
There are some roads such as the A419/A417 between Swindon and Nettleton which feel comparable to a lot of stretches of special road for much of their length, but it would not meet the criteria because A: there are still quite a few at-grade junctions and access points between Blunsdon and Cricklade, and B: there are a number of footpaths which cross it at-grade, along with a handful of bus stops, so you would be unable to ban pedestrians from the entire stretch. The road overall feels an extremely similar standard to the A55 minus the special road portion, which is fairly mixed in terms of quality. Both the all-purpose A55 and the A419/A417 Swindon-Gloucester "expressway" have stretches that are fully grade separated and short stretches with ad-grade access points, along with both having a short stretch that is still S2 due to geographical or financial difficulties in upgrading that stretch.
Last edited by RJDG14 on Thu Aug 11, 2022 17:32, edited 1 time in total.
Is this now the only section of public road which has an outright ban an learners (making it more restrictive than motorways which allow learners if accompanied by an ADI in a car with dual controls)?
Is this now the only section of public road which has an outright ban an learners (making it more restrictive than motorways which allow learners if accompanied by an ADI in a car with dual controls)?
I'm unsure. I could be wrong, but I thought the new allowance for learners in a dual control car with an instructor applied only to England, with Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland having different legislation.
Is this now the only section of public road which has an outright ban an learners (making it more restrictive than motorways which allow learners if accompanied by an ADI in a car with dual controls)?
I'm unsure. I could be wrong, but I thought the new allowance for learners in a dual control car with an instructor applied only to England, with Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland having different legislation.
Definitely includes Wales, as it was the MT(E&W)R that were amended.
That only covers Glan Conwy to Conwy Morfa. Presumably there's another for Llanddulas to Glan Conwy? The A55 special road is actually two special roads end to end. There are back-to-back 70 and clearway signs where they meet.
That only covers Glan Conwy to Conwy Morfa. Presumably there's another for Llanddulas to Glan Conwy? The A55 special road is actually two special roads end to end. There are back-to-back 70 and clearway signs where they meet.
A9Dan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 17:32
Is this now the only section of public road which has an outright ban an learners (making it more restrictive than motorways which allow learners if accompanied by an ADI in a car with dual controls)?
I'm unsure. I could be wrong, but I thought the new allowance for learners in a dual control car with an instructor applied only to England, with Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland having different legislation.
Definitely includes Wales, as it was the MT(E&W)R that were amended.
I'm unsure. I could be wrong, but I thought the new allowance for learners in a dual control car with an instructor applied only to England, with Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland having different legislation.
Definitely includes Wales, as it was the MT(E&W)R that were amended.
NI has the far more sensible system that all vehicles, including cars and motorbikes, have vehicle-based speed limits, something not currently permissible in GB, and therefore the only roads with speed limits have 30, 40, 50 or 60 signs.
If you travel on a special road at more than your vehicle speed limit but less than the posted speed limit, all I can say is that in NI you would be reported for exceeding the speed limit set for your vehicle, so a 70mph special road in NI can be signed as NSL as the vehicle-specific speed limit would still be in effect.
Because in GB cars and motorbikes don’t have a maximum speed, it’s a bit more complicated. Get the RTRA changed!
As for driving on the A55, I’ve never had a problem. I remember a traffic jam approaching it on the A494 which had a nasty long tailback, but the A55 was its usual pleasurable self.
I still don't understand why these sections of A55 were built as a Special Road.
Once they had decided that it would NOT be a motorway, why didn't they just build it as a bog standard A road?
Maybe there was an earlier plan to build A55 as a motorway (westward extension of M56?), so they did the planning accordingly.
Only later did they decide it would NOT be a motorway, just A55, but loads had already been designed to motorway standards, so they kept it as a special road?
gepree68 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:27
I still don't understand why these sections of A55 were built as a Special Road.
Once they had decided that it would NOT be a motorway, why didn't they just build it as a bog standard A road?
Because of the additional benefits a non-motorway Special Road has over an all-purpose road, as well as discussions with BR. The full official response is on PM and has been for years.
Maybe there was an earlier plan to build A55 as a motorway (westward extension of M56?), so they did the planning accordingly.
Only later did they decide it would NOT be a motorway, just A55, but loads had already been designed to motorway standards, so they kept it as a special road?
2022-08-15 A55.png
No, I'm afraid this is pure speculation, with no basis in facts yet discovered.
Steven
Motorway Historian
Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner
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gepree68 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:27
I still don't understand why these sections of A55 were built as a Special Road.
For the first section (heading eastbound), perhaps for convenience, being an easy way to ban undesired traffic from the Conwy Tunnel? Not sure about the reasoning behind the second section, perhaps it was just considered an undesirable environment for certain types of traffic.
I used to drive the A55 fairly frequently to get to/from Ireland, and I never found any problem with it*.
Of greater benefit than a motorway or special road plugged into the M56, though, would be one that plugged into the M6 J16. Think of it as an extension of the A50 between Kegworth-Potteries rather than an extension of M56.
*The 30mph section on the eastbound side near Conwy is a real grind though!