A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

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A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by Richardf »

Came across this while browsing the Wiki.

I can remember as a child seeing maps showing the A41(M) Tring Bypass and at the time wasn't aware it was part of a bigger plan. Thinking about it now though it seemed a very strange motorway plan indeed.

A Motorway from Watford to Tring? Why Tring? Improving the A41 and bypassing the towns along it yes good idea but then what? Doesn't even get you as far as Aylesbury, which would make more sense but even then there isn't much past that unless you cut over to Oxford or Milton Keynes but they were already served by their own Motorways from London.

So does anyone know if there was any plan to go further and if so to where?
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by Steven »

<insert usual joke here>

PM

CBRD
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by Richardf »

Steven wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 17:55 <insert usual joke here>

PM

CBRD
I'd already seen the PM entry before I posted, however the other page I hadn't seen before and was interesting, thanks.

Still doesn't quite explain the A41 (M) really. If that airport had been built then it would've made sense and probably been finished (at least as far as the M25), but if it had been built and the airport not then it would have seemed a very odd motorway indeed. Especially if it didn't quite reach Aylesbury like the current D2 doesn't!
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by Chris5156 »

Richardf wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 19:19
Steven wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 17:55 <insert usual joke here>

PM

CBRD
I'd already seen the PM entry before I posted, however the other page I hadn't seen before and was interesting, thanks.

Still doesn't quite explain the A41 (M) really. If that airport had been built then it would've made sense and probably been finished (at least as far as the M25), but if it had been built and the airport not then it would have seemed a very odd motorway indeed. Especially if it didn't quite reach Aylesbury like the current D2 doesn't!
Do you think the current A41 dual carriageway between Watford and Tring is odd or inexplicable? Because it’s a road on the same line, of broadly the same type and capacity, serving the same purpose - it just isn’t blue.

It’s perfectly justified by traffic levels and as bypasses of a series of congested towns in its own right. It would only look strange because we’re not used to seeing a blue line there.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by c2R »

Richardf wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 19:19
Steven wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 17:55 <insert usual joke here>

PM

CBRD
I'd already seen the PM entry before I posted, however the other page I hadn't seen before and was interesting, thanks.

Still doesn't quite explain the A41 (M) really. If that airport had been built then it would've made sense and probably been finished (at least as far as the M25), but if it had been built and the airport not then it would have seemed a very odd motorway indeed. Especially if it didn't quite reach Aylesbury like the current D2 doesn't!
At least it's almost there now with the Aston Clinton bypass bit stuck on at the end... In the beginning when it was all on its own it was a very curious stretch of motorway, a long way away from anything similar for a very long time!
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by Richardf »

You could almost make a case for the A41(M) plan being the first phase of a motorway to the Midlands. Instead of the M40, the London Birmingham route could have gone via the A41 corridor in its entirety. The M40, instead becomes part of the London Oxford Gloucester route, maybe not all motorway.

The 2 parts of the current M40 do give the impression of 2 distinct motorways joined together. To the uninitiated at least.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

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Richardf wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 20:33 You could almost make a case for the A41(M) plan being the first phase of a motorway to the Midlands. Instead of the M40, the London Birmingham route could have gone via the A41 corridor in its entirety. The M40, instead becomes part of the London Oxford Gloucester route, maybe not all motorway.

The 2 parts of the current M40 do give the impression of 2 distinct motorways joined together. To the uninitiated at least.
Noooooooo!!!!!!!

Someone once said similar over 20 years ago, and it's taken us forever to get rid of that myth. Which it is, a complete myth with zero basis in reality.
Last edited by Steven on Wed Aug 17, 2022 23:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by Chris Bertram »

Well, it's true enough that M40 headed towards Oxford and petered out at Wheatley for quite a few years. So it's easy to imagine that an extension towards Cheltenham could have been projected. And given that when it was extended, it branched off the line towards Oxford (though the current road layout does its best to disguise this*), it's not a great leap of the imagination to see this as a second scheme, perhaps numbered M41 if the West Cross Route had not already nabbed that number.

But we understand that it was always the intention to extend M40 towards Birmingham, even before the fine details of the route were decided. It just took quite a long time to complete, with a big gap in between.

* Before the extension, M40 started, heading eastbound, where A40 branched off about half a mile west of J7 (an exit now long closed and hard to spot) - but there was no corresponding westbound join, so the motorway ended at a random place in the middle of nowhere. The extension, in addition to providing the route to Birmingham, also extended motorway regulations along the Wheatley by-pass to the A418 junction, making that bit of A40 into an M40 spur. At the same time, the westbound on-slip at J7 (previously a three-quarter diamond junction) was closed on safety grounds and a new route was built for A40 between A329 and A418 east of Waterstock.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by wrinkly »

And there was a big fight to stop it going through Otmoor.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by KeithW »

Long before the M40, M1 or M6 was built the A41 was one of the major routes to the midlands. In the mid 1980's I used it more than once to get from West London to the NEC and that included the A41(M). At the time the southern end of the M1 was suffering from horrible congestion. The A41 was no faster but it was a more pleasant drive.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by Bryn666 »

wrinkly wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 00:24 And there was a big fight to stop it going through Otmoor.
The super sharp bend between J8 and J9 is exactly because of this and not because of the mythical "M41" that people have leapt to in the past.

The A41(M) was always planned as a commuter motorway and nothing else. Today however it would be beneficial if it did make it to the M40.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by gepree68 »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:10 The A41(M) was always planned as a commuter motorway and nothing else.
Was A41(M) the intended final number for this motorway?

Or was A41(M) (like A20(M)) a temporary number that would change to (say) M43 when completed?
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by M4Simon »

I used to work this area at the time the road was being built. The old A41 was a long slog through the towns and villages, and the new dual carriageway brought much needed relief. I went to an ICE Evening Meeting (the sort of thing that DeptForLameExcuses occasionally plugs on here), presented by someone from the design team, which I think was Brian Colquhoun and Partners Limited. Colquhouns had taken a number of staff from the Eastern Region Road Construction Unit when that closed, and so I imagine many of the people who worked on the project had been involved throughout its development as a prospective motorway.

It's a long time ago, but I seem to recall the speaker describing how it had been scaled back from a motorway, and at one point was likely to be a wide single carriageway road. This would have made the alignment more onerus than a dual carriageway road as instead of long flowing bends you need to have long straightish sections (for overtaking), and much tighter bends (which are very clearly non-overtaking sections). 30 years later, I can't recall whether it was forecast traffic flows or the fact that the protected land corridor suited a dual carriageway which led to the road ending up as dual carriageway. I also remember the speaker talking about the junction sizes - the traffic forecasts meant that they could be made more compact.

I think the road was built in two contracts - the Kings Langley Bypass and the Berkampstead bypass. I can't recall exactly where the join was. The obvious point was the A414 junction, which would have left one of the contractors building their section of bypass and the A414 link and the other tying in with a section of road that couldn't be used until both contractors had finished. I think, therefore, the split might have been at the Boxmoor junction.

The road's construction meant that the eastbound bridge at the Tring east junction, built 20 years earlier as part of the Tring bypass, was opened to traffic for the first time. There was previously a slip from the old A41 directly onto the westbound bridge for westbound traffic to join the Tring motorway.

Finally, I think a firm called AF Budge built one half of the project (Wikipedia tells me its the Kings Langley Bypass), but went bankrupt part way through construction. I remember seeing many low loaders turn up on site to remove plant not owned by the contractor. I think the business was sold and the contract completed under a new company.

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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by Steven »

gepree68 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 13:18
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:10 The A41(M) was always planned as a commuter motorway and nothing else.
Was A41(M) the intended final number for this motorway?

Or was A41(M) (like A20(M)) a temporary number that would change to (say) M43 when completed?
A41(M) is the only number ever allocated to the A41(M) Watford - Tring Motorway; and the only remaining question about the motorway is the exact timeline of the status of the section between Hunton Bridge and Berrygrove. My research indicates that it spent several years planned to be part of A41(M); Chris hasn't found anything to corroborate that.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by Richardf »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:10
wrinkly wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 00:24 And there was a big fight to stop it going through Otmoor.
The super sharp bend between J8 and J9 is exactly because of this and not because of the mythical "M41" that people have leapt to in the past.

The A41(M) was always planned as a commuter motorway and nothing else. Today however it would be beneficial if it did make it to the M40.
Linking to the M40 and maybe also the M1 the other way would seem to be a good idea.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by Richardf »

Steven wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 20:42
Richardf wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 20:33 You could almost make a case for the A41(M) plan being the first phase of a motorway to the Midlands. Instead of the M40, the London Birmingham route could have gone via the A41 corridor in its entirety. The M40, instead becomes part of the London Oxford Gloucester route, maybe not all motorway.

The 2 parts of the current M40 do give the impression of 2 distinct motorways joined together. To the uninitiated at least.
Noooooooo!!!!!!!

Someone once said similar over 20 years ago, and it's taken us forever to get rid of that myth. Which it is, a complete myth with zero basis in reality.
Sorry. Just a random thought I had. Thought it would be fun to mention it! 😀
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by Jonathan B4027 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 21:11 Well, it's true enough that M40 headed towards Oxford and petered out at Wheatley for quite a few years. So it's easy to imagine that an extension towards Cheltenham could have been projected. And given that when it was extended, it branched off the line towards Oxford (though the current road layout does its best to disguise this*), it's not a great leap of the imagination to see this as a second scheme, perhaps numbered M41 if the West Cross Route had not already nabbed that number.

But we understand that it was always the intention to extend M40 towards Birmingham, even before the fine details of the route were decided. It just took quite a long time to complete, with a big gap in between.

* Before the extension, M40 started, heading eastbound, where A40 branched off about half a mile west of J7 (an exit now long closed and hard to spot) - but there was no corresponding westbound join, so the motorway ended at a random place in the middle of nowhere. The extension, in addition to providing the route to Birmingham, also extended motorway regulations along the Wheatley by-pass to the A418 junction, making that bit of A40 into an M40 spur. At the same time, the westbound on-slip at J7 (previously a three-quarter diamond junction) was closed on safety grounds and a new route was built for A40 between A329 and A418 east of Waterstock.
It looked random (and westbound it was a very odd end of motorway as there wasn't a junction, it stopped about ½ mile after J7 with a lane drop, Nowadays you would assume it would have happened at the J7 off slip) but it did end where the Wheatley bypass originally started. As a past resident of Wheatley and my father being a quantity surveyor on the Wheatley bypass, I became well versed on it! The reason the Wheatley bypass had hard shoulders was my dads claim to fame as he said to keep them to save a few quid of getting rid. They went during the late 80s/very early 90s. The eastbound off slip to the A418 is the only surviving original surfaced bit, with the slightly green colour.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by owen b »

Jonathan B4027 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 21:44
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 21:11 Well, it's true enough that M40 headed towards Oxford and petered out at Wheatley for quite a few years. So it's easy to imagine that an extension towards Cheltenham could have been projected. And given that when it was extended, it branched off the line towards Oxford (though the current road layout does its best to disguise this*), it's not a great leap of the imagination to see this as a second scheme, perhaps numbered M41 if the West Cross Route had not already nabbed that number.

But we understand that it was always the intention to extend M40 towards Birmingham, even before the fine details of the route were decided. It just took quite a long time to complete, with a big gap in between.

* Before the extension, M40 started, heading eastbound, where A40 branched off about half a mile west of J7 (an exit now long closed and hard to spot) - but there was no corresponding westbound join, so the motorway ended at a random place in the middle of nowhere. The extension, in addition to providing the route to Birmingham, also extended motorway regulations along the Wheatley by-pass to the A418 junction, making that bit of A40 into an M40 spur. At the same time, the westbound on-slip at J7 (previously a three-quarter diamond junction) was closed on safety grounds and a new route was built for A40 between A329 and A418 east of Waterstock.
It looked random (and westbound it was a very odd end of motorway as there wasn't a junction, it stopped about ½ mile after J7 with a lane drop, Nowadays you would assume it would have happened at the J7 off slip) but it did end where the Wheatley bypass originally started. As a past resident of Wheatley and my father being a quantity surveyor on the Wheatley bypass, I became well versed on it! The reason the Wheatley bypass had hard shoulders was my dads claim to fame as he said to keep them to save a few quid of getting rid. They went during the late 80s/very early 90s. The eastbound off slip to the A418 is the only surviving original surfaced bit, with the slightly green colour.
I have bad memories of the eastbound offslip from the A40 to the A418. I lost control of my first car on that offslip and wrote it off, thankfully without any injuries. This was in 1990, I think September. The very next day I was given a lift back to Luton and a bus had crashed at exactly the same spot. A few weeks after that a red warning triangle sign for skid risk was put up on the slip road. A few months after that the slip road was resurfaced.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by wrinkly »

M4Simon wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 14:21 I think the road was built in two contracts - the Kings Langley Bypass and the Berkampstead bypass. I can't recall exactly where the join was. The obvious point was the A414 junction, which would have left one of the contractors building their section of bypass and the A414 link and the other tying in with a section of road that couldn't be used until both contractors had finished. I think, therefore, the split might have been at the Boxmoor junction.
I'm not sure where you mean by the Boxmoor junction, as OS and Google maps show Boxmoor near Hemel Hempstead station and near the place where the present A41 goes over the former A41 without connection.

My 1:50k (not yet called Landranger) sheet 166 edition A/*, selected roads revised 1974, shows a proposed motorway from the junction of the A41, the A411 and what is today the M25 spur, following much the same line as the present A41, bypassing Kings Langley, crossing the then A41 as mentioned above, and ending at the site of the present GSJ east of Bourne End (shown as Winkwell on today's OS but not named on the old one).

Presumably the line of the extension bypassing Berkhamsted had not yet been published.

So I suspect that the boundary between the Kings Langley bypass and the Berkhamsted bypass remained unchanged through the process of de-motorwaying, awarding contracts and construction.

The then proposed motorway extended a bit further towards Watford than today's A41 bypass does, doubtless because of the realignment of the M25 mainline.
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Re: A41(M) Watford Tring Motorway

Post by JohnnyMo »

Richardf wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 21:31
Steven wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 20:42
Richardf wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 20:33 You could almost make a case for the A41(M) plan being the first phase of a motorway to the Midlands. Instead of the M40, the London Birmingham route could have gone via the A41 corridor in its entirety. The M40, instead becomes part of the London Oxford Gloucester route, maybe not all motorway.

The 2 parts of the current M40 do give the impression of 2 distinct motorways joined together. To the uninitiated at least.
Noooooooo!!!!!!!

Someone once said similar over 20 years ago, and it's taken us forever to get rid of that myth. Which it is, a complete myth with zero basis in reality.
Sorry. Just a random thought I had. Thought it would be fun to mention it! 😀
Wasn't there a bit of Yes Minister where they were discussing why the M40 (London-Oxford) & M11 (London-Cambridge) were build so early in the motorway program.
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