The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.
There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).
Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.
A productive visit to East Sussex Records Office (aka The Keep) today.
Wasn't sure what I was going to find but this plans book was excellent. Other than a high level summary, there was no accompanying documentation so I'll need to do further research unless someone on here knows more about the history?
There's very detailed plan pages for the whole route but what's interesting with this is with exception of the Clayton gap road, it would take a whole new alignment
So that all looks fine and dandy but 4 years earlier in 1902 a new L2B rail line was proposed.
Here's the whole route which and hopefully with the image size limitations, you can see it follows a very similar route.
However, this is was an utterly insane proposal with miles of tunnels and viaducts. This little gem needs a lot more research as I've yet to find anything on t'interweb regarding this. No idea what it was costed at but it'd have to rival the whole of HS2
In the early 20th century electric cars were definite thing, they where cheaper, more reliable and more practical than the clunky early petrol engines and there were few places except a chemits shop to buy petrol.
KeithW wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 18:24
In the early 20th century electric cars were definite thing, they where cheaper, more reliable and more practical than the clunky early petrol engines and there were few places except a chemits shop to buy petrol.
Yes, I used to cover the VCR each year and IIRC there were at least 2 electric cars taking part + a few steamers
I can't seem to find it now, but somewhere there was a route of a late 19th century or early 20th century "London - Brighton Motor Way" which would of seen a new Motor Only Vehicular route from London to Brighton, mostly following the route of the A24, a completely different route to the one shown on the plans that you found, and would of been built using railway act powers.
The line of the route is interesting too, more or less following the railway, rather than the A23, although back in 1905 road numbers didn't exist and the A23 may of been hardly distinguishable from the B2036 in terms of cross section & quality. - There was a discussion last year (just noticed you posted in this) on perhaps a cancelled B2036 widening / dualing works from Pre WW / inter-war period before the A23 was improved. - Maybe these plans somewhat influenced improvements on the B2036 alignment instead of the A23.
My knowledge of the area outside of Sussex is somewhat lacking, but surprised that their proposed line runs straight through Borde Hill Park (now a listed park) & attacks the South Downs over Clayton Hill (A273), rather than the less steep & less high Dale Hill which the A23 uses.
I wonder what the proposed cross section of this Motor Way would have been, and how it would of interacted at side roads.
Yes, that looks like the 1906 London - Brighton Motor Way, one of a collection of early 20th century attempts to build a medium or long-distance motor road, the most well-known of which is the 1923 Northern and Western Motorway. Back in those days there was no Special Roads Act of course, so they were proposed to be legally light railways with toll booths etc.
As a light railway, it followed railway thinking as well, so it was quite removed from what we think of as a motorway today in many ways. As I once put it...
Pathetic Motorways wrote:
The first proposals were for a Motor Road that would run between London and Brighton, which made it as far as Parliament in 1906. "The London and Brighton Motor Way" was a Private Bill and would have provided for a motorway between Croydon and Patcham in Sussex, where co-incidentally the modern A23 dual carriageway ends and becomes the relatively unimproved road through the Brighton urban area. It would have been a dual carriageway, and only open to self-powered vehicles. As there were no other motorways planned at that time, the proposed legislation was written as if the road were a railway line, with a company that would have similar rights to railway companies. As it was a private enterprise, tolls would have been charged.
...
The Bill lasted about five minutes, when it was withdrawn due to huge opposition, not only from the railway companies but also from a huge proportion of MPs, with not a single party being in favour.
As an interesting aside, within the consultants' report on the M23 in the mid-1960s was a section discussing the 1906 plans, and the alternative route plans showed the 1906 route, though it was not one of the ones chosen.
If you continue to research, you'll also come across the 1925-6 remix of the London - Brighton Motor Way, which lasted even less time than its predecessor, but it did grow a "future" spur from the Horsham area to Southampton via Portsmouth.
Steven
Motorway Historian
Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Steven wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 19:57
As a light railway, it followed railway thinking as well, so it was quite removed from what we think of as a motorway today in many ways. As I once put it...
Pathetic Motorways wrote:
The first proposals were for a Motor Road that would run between London and Brighton, which made it as far as Parliament in 1906. "The London and Brighton Motor Way" was a Private Bill and would have provided for a motorway between Croydon and Patcham in Sussex, where co-incidentally the modern A23 dual carriageway ends and becomes the relatively unimproved road through the Brighton urban area. It would have been a dual carriageway, and only open to self-powered vehicles. As there were no other motorways planned at that time, the proposed legislation was written as if the road were a railway line, with a company that would have similar rights to railway companies. As it was a private enterprise, tolls would have been charged.
The Bill lasted about five minutes, when it was withdrawn due to huge opposition, not only from the railway companies but also from a huge proportion of MPs, with not a single party being in favour.
As an interesting aside, within the consultants' report on the M23 in the mid-1960s was a section discussing the 1906 plans, and the alternative route plans showed the 1906 route, though it was not one of the ones chosen.
If you continue to research, you'll also come across the 1925-6 remix of the London - Brighton Motor Way, which lasted even less time than its predecessor, but it did grow a "future" spur from the Horsham area to Southampton via Portsmouth.
Ahh thanks for this. This is a new area for me and I'm not familiar with any of the history. No doubt the railway Co.s would have taken a dim view of these developments and I'd love to know what the response was in the LBSCR boardroom when this other rail route was mooted.
M1keA wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:33
Ahh thanks for this. This is a new area for me and I'm not familiar with any of the history. No doubt the railway Co.s would have taken a dim view of these developments and I'd love to know what the response was in the LBSCR boardroom when this other rail route was mooted.
No worries - I literally wrote this stuff back in 2008, and I forget that new people come into this all the time!
Steven
Motorway Historian
Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Steven wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:13
No worries - I literally wrote this stuff back in 2008, and I forget that new people come into this all the time!
I'm dreadful for going off down (research) rabbitholes and I've arguably not gained anything tangible from yesterday's visit but it was fun and there were some tidbits I thought others would be interested in
jervi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 19:07
Interesting find.
I can't seem to find it now, but somewhere there was a route of a late 19th century or early 20th century "London - Brighton Motor Way" which would of seen a new Motor Only Vehicular route from London to Brighton, mostly following the route of the A24, a completely different route to the one shown on the plans that you found, and would of been built using railway act powers.
You're looking at the earliest one! The 1905/1906 plan was the first London-Brighton Motorway. A later plan from 1928 took a more westerly line, as you describe, branching off the Kingston Bypass and with plans for future branches towards Worthing, Southampton and Portsmouth.
You can see the outline of the 1928 plan on this M23 page.
jervi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 19:07
Interesting find.
I can't seem to find it now, but somewhere there was a route of a late 19th century or early 20th century "London - Brighton Motor Way" which would of seen a new Motor Only Vehicular route from London to Brighton, mostly following the route of the A24, a completely different route to the one shown on the plans that you found, and would of been built using railway act powers.
You're looking at the earliest one! The 1905/1906 plan was the first London-Brighton Motorway. A later plan from 1928 took a more westerly line, as you describe, branching off the Kingston Bypass and with plans for future branches towards Worthing, Southampton and Portsmouth.
You can see the outline of the 1928 plan on this M23 page.
Yeah thats it. I looked all over that page and couldn't find it at first.
M1keA wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 18:17
So that all looks fine and dandy but 4 years earlier in 1902 a new L2B rail line was proposed.
Here's the whole route which and hopefully with the image size limitations, you can see it follows a very similar route.
MA5D3-0241.jpg
However, this is was an utterly insane proposal with miles of tunnels and viaducts. This little gem needs a lot more research as I've yet to find anything on t'interweb regarding this. No idea what it was costed at but it'd have to rival the whole of HS2
That was the initial plan produced by the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway using a high voltage overhead line. That was initially done as far as Coulsdon and it got as far as Selhurst in 1912 before it stalled. The LBSCR was swallowed up in the mergers of the 1920's. The overhead line was abandoned and 3rd rail electrification happened in the 1930's reaching Worthing in 1933
jervi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 19:07
The line of the route is interesting too, more or less following the railway, rather than the A23, although back in 1905 road numbers didn't exist and the A23 may of been hardly distinguishable from the B2036 in terms of cross section & quality. - There was a discussion last year (just noticed you posted in this) on perhaps a cancelled B2036 widening / dualing works from Pre WW / inter-war period before the A23 was improved. - Maybe these plans somewhat influenced improvements on the B2036 alignment instead of the A23.
My knowledge of the area outside of Sussex is somewhat lacking, but surprised that their proposed line runs straight through Borde Hill Park (now a listed park) & attacks the South Downs over Clayton Hill (A273), rather than the less steep & less high Dale Hill which the A23 uses.
I wonder what the proposed cross section of this Motor Way would have been, and how it would of interacted at side roads.
I'm not familiar enough with the history but the current alignment of the A23 from Horley to B'ton is the flatest through the county though I'd like to establish when the Warninglid - Handcross turnpike actually opened as the 'first' route along there went via Staplefield to Five ways.
The ridge the B2110 runs along from Handcross - EG is almost the same height at Balcombe Tunnel as the Clayton Hill (cut), a fact that's not that obvious on the ground. Do agree it's odd they chose to go over Clayton as you still have a steep grade on the N side. I gather the B2036 never made a lot of money as a turnpike, probably becuase of the rural nature of Worth & Balcombe parishes, and the lumpiness of the route?
Chris5156
Thanks for the link and interesting to see that 1928 route. To my eye that immediately avoids the Weald high ground but that can't have really been a consideration, especially when you factor in the escarpment on the North Downs and the steepness of Pebble Hill Rd N from Betchworth? Horsham is an old town and probably the largest in the area at that time so I guess it'd make sense to go via there?
KeithW wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:46
That was the initial plan produced by the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway using a high voltage overhead line. That was initially done as far as Coulsdon and it got as far as Selhurst in 1912 before it stalled. The LBSCR was swallowed up in the mergers of the 1920's. The overhead line was abandoned and 3rd rail electrification happened in the 1930's reaching Worthing in 1933
KeithW wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:46
That was the initial plan produced by the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway using a high voltage overhead line. That was initially done as far as Coulsdon and it got as far as Selhurst in 1912 before it stalled. The LBSCR was swallowed up in the mergers of the 1920's. The overhead line was abandoned and 3rd rail electrification happened in the 1930's reaching Worthing in 1933
