Road numbering system oddities

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Chris Bertram
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Re: Road numbering system oddities

Post by Chris Bertram »

wallmeerkat wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2024 10:00 E18 is ridiculous, nobody is driving from Craigavon to St Petersburg

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=E18 (UK focus on SABRE, Wikipedia has a wider focus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E18 )

And why Craigavon? Why not Sligo? Presumably it starts where the M12NI meets the M1NI?
And you can't get from Newcastle (England) to Norway.
I was going to say that it's like the Birmingham New Street to Stansted Airport rail service. Nobody sensible would use it end-to-end; quite apart anything else the journey is quicker via London. However, many of the intermediate journeys are served nicely, and the service is worthwhile for that reason.

However the discontinuities due to cancelled ferry routes are indeed a problem, though one hopes that e.g. Newcastle - Bergen might be restarted one day.
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From the SABRE Wiki: E18 :

The E18 runs from Craigavon to Newcastle upon Tyne (en-route to Norway), via Belfast, Larne, Stranraer and Carlisle. It uses the Cairnryan - Larne ferry to cross between Northern Ireland and Scotland. It meets the E01 at Lisburn (running with it to Larne), the E16 at Belfast (running with it to Newtonabbey), the E05 at Gretna (running with it to Carlisle) and the E15 at Newcastle.


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Re: Road numbering system oddities

Post by freebrickproductions »

FosseWay wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2024 14:59
wallmeerkat wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2024 10:00 E18 is ridiculous, nobody is driving from Craigavon to St Petersburg

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=E18 (UK focus on SABRE, Wikipedia has a wider focus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E18 )

And why Craigavon? Why not Sligo? Presumably it starts where the M12NI meets the M1NI?
And you can't get from Newcastle (England) to Norway.
You used to be able to get to Stavanger and/or Bergen from Newcastle.

But broadly I agree with the above questioning of the utility of the E-road scheme. It feels like someone looked at the US and decided Europe needed something similar, completely failing to take into account either geography (big bits of sea with no connections) or politics, economics and culture (particularly considering the scheme was created when the Iron Curtain was still very much a thing).

There probably is a place for some kind of supranational numbering scheme in the central part of mainland Europe (an area defined roughly by an X with its points at the Pyrenees, Jutland, St Petersburg and Istanbul), where any longish journey and quite a few short ones will cross several national boundaries and involve entirely unrelated numbering schemes and signage conventions. But it becomes less relevant in places where you don't get lots of borders (Iberia, Italy, GB & Ireland, Scandinavia & Finland) and to be useful it would have to follow obvious international routes, not try to maintain a pseudo-US grid system at the cost of practicality.
I almost wonder if the reason why a grid was chosen was to avoid too much arguing about what route E1 (or any other "important" number) should take.
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From the SABRE Wiki: E18 :

The E18 runs from Craigavon to Newcastle upon Tyne (en-route to Norway), via Belfast, Larne, Stranraer and Carlisle. It uses the Cairnryan - Larne ferry to cross between Northern Ireland and Scotland. It meets the E01 at Lisburn (running with it to Larne), the E16 at Belfast (running with it to Newtonabbey), the E05 at Gretna (running with it to Carlisle) and the E15 at Newcastle.


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Re: Road numbering system oddities

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freebrickproductions wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 03:25 I almost wonder if the reason why a grid was chosen was to avoid too much arguing about what route E1 (or any other "important" number) should take.
Entirely possible, even probable :)

I have a feeling I read somewhere that the UNECE wanted to change the route of the E6, meaning that its current route (Trelleborg to Nordkapp) would either have a new (and presumably "less important") number or not be part of the network at all. The Swedes and Norwegians kicked up a stink, pointing to the fact that E-road numbers are baked into both countries' internal classification systems, and the UNECE gave up.
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Re: Road numbering system oddities

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FosseWay wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 09:13
freebrickproductions wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 03:25 I almost wonder if the reason why a grid was chosen was to avoid too much arguing about what route E1 (or any other "important" number) should take.
Entirely possible, even probable :)

I have a feeling I read somewhere that the UNECE wanted to change the route of the E6, meaning that its current route (Trelleborg to Nordkapp) would either have a new (and presumably "less important") number or not be part of the network at all. The Swedes and Norwegians kicked up a stink, pointing to the fact that E-road numbers are baked into both countries' internal classification systems, and the UNECE gave up.
The problem with the E-numbers is they feel like an accounting metric that somehow got out into the wild, and in the wild their use is patchy. For example Belgium uses the E numbers on its motorways instead of the A number they all have, but at the same time none of the N roads with an E number are signed with the E number. In Scandowegia the E numbers are effectively the only motorway numbers, and other countries they are decorative if used. France sometimes it feels the French A-number is often not used as much as the autoroute name.
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Re: Road numbering system oddities

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exiled wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 16:29France sometimes it feels the French A-number is often not used as much as the autoroute name.
France has a weird relationship with road numbering. In one sense road numbers appear to be extremely important - every numbered road has little facsimile kilometreposts bearing the number every kilometre, highway authorities at every level assign numbers, and the network is extremely dense. And yet, for the purposes of navigation, they're almost an afterthought: advance direction signs will almost never show them, so instead you have to get to the decision point itself to find a little coloured tab at the top of a fingerpost that indicates a number. So you are left with a system where you are reminded every kilometre which road you're on, but when you reach a junction you have a hard time knowing which way it goes next.
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Re: Road numbering system oddities

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Chris5156 wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 17:53
exiled wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 16:29France sometimes it feels the French A-number is often not used as much as the autoroute name.
France has a weird relationship with road numbering. In one sense road numbers appear to be extremely important - every numbered road has little facsimile kilometreposts bearing the number every kilometre, highway authorities at every level assign numbers, and the network is extremely dense. And yet, for the purposes of navigation, they're almost an afterthought: advance direction signs will almost never show them, so instead you have to get to the decision point itself to find a little coloured tab at the top of a fingerpost that indicates a number. So you are left with a system where you are reminded every kilometre which road you're on, but when you reach a junction you have a hard time knowing which way it goes next.
I like the little posts on the autoroutes and the voies express, because they have been made in the way of the old stones from decades back. But yes, the actual numbers seem an afterthought, you navigate by place name and by colour of the sign. The autoroutes often have the numbers on the signs much more than elsewhere, but not uncommon to see 'Orleans par RN' to help the shunpikers without mentioning which RN you are following.

What is interesting is that some of the RN numbers are so embedded into French culture, N10, N7, N13, and so on, that when departementalised they got related numbers, yet they might as well not be used in places. Even on road maps it can be a game of hunt the road number, the colour it is printed being much more important.
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Re: Road numbering system oddities

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exiled wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 16:29 In Scandowegia the E numbers are effectively the only motorway numbers.
No, this isn't accurate. Any road that has an E-route number has that number in the national numbering scheme of Sweden, and AFAIK Norway, though I've never driven there so am uncertain whether/how much their approach is different from Sweden's. What the size, quality or legal classification is, is neither here nor there. So the E45 as it leaves Gothenburg towards Trollhättan is D2M, but in the boonies up north it's similar to a moorland A-road in Northumberland or Scotland. Conversely, there are motorways that aren't part of the E-route network, which have normal riksväg numbers.

In fact, Swedish motorway numbering is an oddity of international numbering schemes in itself, in that there is no motorway-specific numbering system. There is neither a whole series of numbers dedicated to motorways (as in the UK or Germany) nor a route-based numbering system with a different prefix denoting the kind of road, as Ireland uses. Nothing about the number or designation of a Swedish road tells you whether it's a motorway or not, only whether it's a riksväg or a landsväg (and the latter don't tend to have numbers shown on road signs).
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Re: Road numbering system oddities

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FosseWay wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 18:04
exiled wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 16:29 In Scandowegia the E numbers are effectively the only motorway numbers.
No, this isn't accurate. Any road that has an E-route number has that number in the national numbering scheme of Sweden, and AFAIK Norway, though I've never driven there so am uncertain whether/how much their approach is different from Sweden's. What the size, quality or legal classification is, is neither here nor there. So the E45 as it leaves Gothenburg towards Trollhättan is D2M, but in the boonies up north it's similar to a moorland A-road in Northumberland or Scotland. Conversely, there are motorways that aren't part of the E-route network, which have normal riksväg numbers.

In fact, Swedish motorway numbering is an oddity of international numbering schemes in itself, in that there is no motorway-specific numbering system. There is neither a whole series of numbers dedicated to motorways (as in the UK or Germany) nor a route-based numbering system with a different prefix denoting the kind of road, as Ireland uses. Nothing about the number or designation of a Swedish road tells you whether it's a motorway or not, only whether it's a riksväg or a landsväg (and the latter don't tend to have numbers shown on road signs).
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Re: Road numbering system oddities

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FosseWay wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 18:04
exiled wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 16:29 In Scandowegia the E numbers are effectively the only motorway numbers.
No, this isn't accurate. Any road that has an E-route number has that number in the national numbering scheme of Sweden, and AFAIK Norway, though I've never driven there so am uncertain whether/how much their approach is different from Sweden's. What the size, quality or legal classification is, is neither here nor there. So the E45 as it leaves Gothenburg towards Trollhättan is D2M, but in the boonies up north it's similar to a moorland A-road in Northumberland or Scotland. Conversely, there are motorways that aren't part of the E-route network, which have normal riksväg numbers.

In fact, Swedish motorway numbering is an oddity of international numbering schemes in itself, in that there is no motorway-specific numbering system. There is neither a whole series of numbers dedicated to motorways (as in the UK or Germany) nor a route-based numbering system with a different prefix denoting the kind of road, as Ireland uses. Nothing about the number or designation of a Swedish road tells you whether it's a motorway or not, only whether it's a riksväg or a landsväg (and the latter don't tend to have numbers shown on road signs).
It is quite a natural design point in sparsely populated countries having less long contiguous motorways. For example, the S-N backbone of Finland 4/E75 is 1300 kilometers long and has five separate motorway sections, total of 200+ kilometers. Hard to see the benefits from having a different road number for the motorway sections.

Basically, Finland, Sweden, and Norway signpost routes not roads. A small but a big difference.
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Re: Road numbering system oddities

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Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2024 18:52 I was going to say that it's like the Birmingham New Street to Stansted Airport rail service. Nobody sensible would use it end-to-end; quite apart anything else the journey is quicker via London.
Not quite end-to-end (these days, anyway), but Birmingham to Cambridge direct used to be pretty popular with university students at the start and end of term. If you're carrying luggage then the time penalty is worthwhile to avoid lugging your bags across stations and on/off the tube or buses in London. There was even a through Cambridge-Aberystwyth service at one point which a couple of my friends would catch!
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Re: Road numbering system oddities

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FosseWay wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 09:13
freebrickproductions wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 03:25 I almost wonder if the reason why a grid was chosen was to avoid too much arguing about what route E1 (or any other "important" number) should take.
Entirely possible, even probable :)

I have a feeling I read somewhere that the UNECE wanted to change the route of the E6, meaning that its current route (Trelleborg to Nordkapp) would either have a new (and presumably "less important") number or not be part of the network at all. The Swedes and Norwegians kicked up a stink, pointing to the fact that E-road numbers are baked into both countries' internal classification systems, and the UNECE gave up.
The history in brief:

The UNECE made a grid-based proposal in 1975. Many countries hesitated because of costs. When the new system came into effect in 1983, only eight countries had joined.

The Nordics were pretty much against the proposal, especially Norway and Sweden. Norway and Sweden decided in 1987 to not join the new system. Therefore, there were two overlapping systems for a few years. Denmark joined the new system, and Finland decided to see what happens.

The Nordics submitted a revised plan to the UNECE, and that was approved in 1989. Norway, Finland, and Sweden took the renumbering actions in 1992.

Yes, Sweden and Norway did not to want to lose their "good" numbers E4 and E6. Finland did not make much noise, because the E-road numbering is separate from the national one, and Finland saw the case a secondary question.

The original plan for Finland, Sweden and Norway was the following. What was implemented shown in parenthesis.

E06 Olderfjord(xE47)-Kirkenes (now E6 Trelleborg-Oslo-Trondheim-Olderfjord-Kirkenes)
E10 Narvik-Luleå (now Lofoten-Luleå)
E12 Helsinki-Vaasa-Umeå-Mo i Rana to replace E79 (as proposed)
E14 Sundsvall-Trondheim to replace E75 (as proposed)
E18 Stavanger-Kristiansand-Oslo-Stockholm-Helsinki-Vaalimaa to replace E3 in Finland (now Kristiansand-Vaalimaa)
E20 Malmö-Gothenburg-Örebro-Eskilstuna-Stockholm to replace E3 in Sweden (as proposed)
E22 Trelleborg-Malmö-Kalmar-Norrköping to replace E66 (as proposed)
E39 Kristiansand-Aalborg (now Trondheim-Bergen-Stavanger-Kristiansand-Aalborg)
E45 Sicily-Gothenburg (now Sicily-Gothenburg-Kaaresuvanto-Alta)
E47 Helsingborg-Oslo-Trondheim-Olderfjord-Nordkapp to replace E6 (now E69 Olderfjord-Nordkapp only, no E47 in SWE/NOR)
E55 Helsingborg-Stockholm-Haparanda-Tornio-Kemi to replace E4 (now E4 Helsingborg-Tornio, E8 Tornio-Kemi, no E55 in SWE/FIN)
E63 Gothenburg-Jönköping-Stockholm-Turku-Kuopio-Sodankylä to replace E80 in Finland (as proposed in Finland, no E63 in Sweden)
E65 Malmö-Ystad to replace E14 (as proposed)
E69 Tromsø-Tornio to replace E78 (now E8 Tromsø-Tornio-Oulu-Turku)
E75 Helsinki-Oulu-Kemi-Ivalo-Karasjok to replace E4 in Finland (now Helsinki-Ivalo-Utsjoki-Vardø)

Note that Sweden lost their "good" E3 for E20. Norway would have lost their E68 Oslo-Bergen, E69 Dombås-Ålesund, and E76 Oslo-Haugesund. They were renumbered to E16, E136, and E134 respectively in the revised plan.
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Re: Road numbering system oddities

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Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2024 18:52
I was going to say that it's like the Birmingham New Street to Stansted Airport rail service. Nobody sensible would use it end-to-end; quite apart anything else the journey is quicker via London. However, many of the intermediate journeys are served nicely, and the service is worthwhile for that reason…
I remember when it ran Liverpool to Stansted, via Birmingham. The one time I ever flew out of Stansted I got the train from Penkridge all the way without changing. 4 hour train for a 2 hour flight seemed a bit excessive.
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Re: Road numbering system oddities

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exiled wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 16:29
FosseWay wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 09:13
freebrickproductions wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 03:25 I almost wonder if the reason why a grid was chosen was to avoid too much arguing about what route E1 (or any other "important" number) should take.
Entirely possible, even probable :)

I have a feeling I read somewhere that the UNECE wanted to change the route of the E6, meaning that its current route (Trelleborg to Nordkapp) would either have a new (and presumably "less important") number or not be part of the network at all. The Swedes and Norwegians kicked up a stink, pointing to the fact that E-road numbers are baked into both countries' internal classification systems, and the UNECE gave up.
The problem with the E-numbers is they feel like an accounting metric that somehow got out into the wild, and in the wild their use is patchy. For example Belgium uses the E numbers on its motorways instead of the A number they all have, but at the same time none of the N roads with an E number are signed with the E number. In Scandowegia the E numbers are effectively the only motorway numbers, and other countries they are decorative if used. France sometimes it feels the French A-number is often not used as much as the autoroute name.
Isn't that basically what the GB numbering system is?
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