A195(M) Washington - the evidence

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Roadtripper_Ian
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A195(M) Washington - the evidence

Post by Roadtripper_Ian » Wed Jul 23, 2003 15:26

Have taken some pictures of the motorway spur running east of A1(M) J64 in Washington. An unusual piece of motorway -
- Dual 2 and 3 lane with no hard shoulder
- Abrupt End-of-Motorway heading east between junctions
- No start of motorway sign heading west
- Route confirmation markers call it the A195 despite being motorway at the time
I call this road the A195(M) due to being the A195 and a motorway. What do you think?
A map is here.
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Bryn666
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Post by Bryn666 » Wed Jul 23, 2003 15:31

The lack of a central barrier is also quite alarming. Unusual motorway there, perhaps one for Steven?
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Post by Steven » Wed Jul 23, 2003 16:26

Bryn: <<Unusual motorway there, perhaps one for Steven?>>
Sounds good to me! It's a fair distance away from me, but I think a trip taking it and the A66(M) in could well be organised at some point...
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Post by Bryn666 » Wed Jul 23, 2003 17:10

I wonder if you should start a subsection for PM - Pathetic Spurs With Motorway Regulations But Look And Feel Like A 1940s Arterial Road.
Or perhaps not...;-)
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Post by 686Carl » Thu Jul 24, 2003 00:05

I notice the two route confirmation signs for the A195 are in different fonts and the one in motorway permanent looks quite old. I have travelled on this road but it was a few years ago and didn't think of it being a motorway or an A road



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Sam
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Post by Sam » Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:33

Well, if we're going to count that spur as the A195(M), then that means we've got a new lost motorway on our hands.
The A1231(M).
Before the extension of the A1231 from the A182 to the A1 was completed further north (meeting at J65, one of CBRD's Bad Junctions, although IMHO it's not too bad), this stretch of A195 was the A1231. I can remember clearly when they changed the numbers; the new A195 signs had lots of tiny crossed out A1231s on them to make things clear.
Now I can't recall if there were any A1231(M) signs, but if you're going on the logic in the thread above, it surely must count...

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Post by Paul » Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:37

And we thought we had every motorway logged!
The A195(M) and A1231(M) are going to be included therefore...
By the way, the OS have the eastern start/end of the motorway shown incorrectly: it should start/end just before the eastern-facing slips by the Government Offices, not underneath the western arc of the roundabout overbridge...
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Post by Paul » Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43

On your IMG_1016 and IMG_0070 photos, it shows the road as signed A1(M), logically, as westbound from the Lambton (?) internchange. This then makes the A195(M) a bit like the M45/M10 situation where it's arguably only that number in one direction...
Jury's out on this one: does the A195(M) number only apply to the eastbound stretch?
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Post by Roadtripper_Ian » Mon Jul 28, 2003 16:23

The A1(M) signs are at the top of the Lambton interchange. Its also signed A1(M) on the approach to this roundabout.
Here's the thing. There is an end of motorway sign eastbound as teh slip road leaves the mainline for the Lambton roundabout. Westbound there is no start of motorway sign, but with a "Motorway Ahead" sign regulations either start as the slip road diverges east of the roundabout, or as the slips come on at the western end, leaving the carriageway under the roundabout in limbo a bit like the A1 prior to Hook Moor.
I came up with A195(M) because the route confirmation signs at Washington Services say A195 in white on blue on a motorway. If you say that motorway regs start westbound after the last possible non-motorway exit (the exit for the Lambton Interchange) then there is a good three quarters of a mile of motorway signed A1(M) that isn't. And Eastbound add on another quarter mile for the carriageway through Washington Services.
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Post by Paul » Mon Jul 28, 2003 17:00

Ian,
Since this is your 'baby', I'll let you add it to the Roaders' Digest here!
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Post by Chris5156 » Mon Jul 28, 2003 19:34

Does this mean it needs a Motorway Database page complete with strip map then?

<party-pooper>
I'm still dubious - it looks for all the world to me like an A1(M) spur that has A195 signs on it because that's where you're going... Has anyone seen the number A195(M) anywhere, on the ground, on signs, on a map, or anywhere outside our discussions, ever?
</party-pooper>

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Post by Chris5156 » Mon Jul 28, 2003 19:36

Bryn666: <<The lack of a central barrier is also quite alarming.>>

There's lots of NSL dual carriageways without central barriers. It's just that this one has motorway restrictions!

The A58(M) is also without, for the record (and yes, the A38(M)...).

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Post by Sam » Mon Jul 28, 2003 22:12

I drove past the junction both ways on the A1(M) at the weekend, and there's certainly no A195(M) signs visible there. Whether or not there are any off road is another story... however, I don't remember seeing any. I was only pointing out that *if* you call it the A195(M) then you can have the A1231(M) also - buy one, get one free! :-)

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Post by t1(M) » Mon Jul 28, 2003 23:49

(Excuse typo in previous)
<<The A58(M) is also without (a central barrier), for the record>>.

and so is part of the A329(M).
Dare I mention that neither theA6144(M) nor part of the A601(M) have central barriers either?

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Post by Roadtripper_Ian » Tue Jul 29, 2003 08:42

*grin*
I never said that there have ever been any signs showing that the road was A195(M) officially. I got the name from all the signs confirming that the motorway running through Washington Services and on towards Washington is the A195.
The signs are contradictory. Either you believe the signs at the services that its the A195 (and there are a lot of blue A195 signs southbound), or you believe the signs westbound that its the A1(M). It can't be both.
Personally I would call it the A195(M) officially as I think all spurs of a reasonable length should have a proper name. This spur has no name - either its a spur of the A1(M), or its the A195.
The former case makes no sense, as motorway spurs ordinarily have a clear ending. This road isn't a spur, its a separate road with multiple destinations. The latter is wrongly signed - it can't be the A195 as its a motorway. But, with the rest of the route called the A195, and the motorway part of it apparently called A195, to me that makes it the A195(M).
Like I say, officially the A195(M) doesn't exist. There are no signs saying that it does and the maps don't show it. BUT - on the ground it appears to exist. Am I being silly here? Multiple signs tell me that the motorway is the A195. If its a motorway, and thats the route number, surely it should have an (M) on the end?
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Post by Chris5156 » Tue Jul 29, 2003 09:37

Ian: <<The signs are contradictory. Either you believe the signs at the services that its the A195 (and there are a lot of blue A195 signs southbound), or you believe the signs westbound that its the A1(M). It can't be both.>>
Can't it?
The M10 and M45 designations used to only apply one way. Joining them from the non-motorway end they were signed as M1, because that was the only place you were going. Only when leaving the M1 did they appear on signs as M10 or M45.
<<The former case makes no sense, as motorway spurs ordinarily have a clear ending. This road isn't a spur, its a separate road with multiple destinations.>>
What do you mean by a clear ending? Okay, so the signing is anomalous and we're missing some start and end of restrictions signs or whatever.
And this is the M4 spur, with a definite 'clear ending' at a roundabout, but you can still go three ways at the end just like the A195 spur.It's jsut a different junction design.Should we call it the A4(M)?
<<Like I say, officially the A195(M) doesn't exist.>>
What I'm looking for is an official number! A1(M) appears on signs, even the A604(M) is found in a couple of SI's, but this road is still speculation.
Chris
* The OS mapping is wrong - there's obviously motorway restrictions until the end of the eastern slips from the roundabout.

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Post by Nic » Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:00

From what I understand, and I don't think that I ever drove this way, in my year in Newcastle, it would seem, and correct me if I've completely misunderstood...
If you are travellingsouthbound on the A1(M) and you leave to turn to washington, along the A195, you join a road called the A195, but don't get an "end of motorway restrictions" sign until you reach the junction with the A182. Which would mean you're on a motorway called the A195(M)?
Apologies if I'm wrong, otherwise, I'm with you, Ian
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Post by Sam » Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:54

The other unusual (and dangerous) thing about this junction is the layout southbound. Traffic exiting the Washington services has to cross the A195 southbound exit slip before it can rejoin the A1(M). This leads to the perilous situation of very slow moving traffic crossing very fast moving traffic. Now you get this all the time with at-grade dual-carriageway crossings, for instance, but the problem in this case is that people just aren't expecting it...
There are two right-handed signs because of this layout that you can see in the "Services Exit" photo in Ian's album.

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Post by Roadtripper_Ian » Tue Jul 29, 2003 20:21

Chris wrote - * The OS mapping is wrong - there's obviously motorway restrictions until the end of the eastern slips from the roundabout.

No, if you look at hereconfirm that the motorway is the A195. If the signs all said (A195) then fair enough, as that would mean that we are heading towards the A195 but don't join it straight away. If this was a spur of the A1(M) wouldn't the signs have the (A195) brackets?
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Post by Chris5156 » Tue Jul 29, 2003 21:19

Ian: <<No, if you look at this photo, you see an end of motorway sign at the start of the western slips, not the eastern where logically it should be. Westbound there is no start of motorway sign.>>

That was for the M1/A46 spur at Leicester! Oops....

<< If this was a spur of the A1(M) wouldn't the signs have the (A195) brackets?>>

Considering one's not in the right font, isn't it possible some untrained oik made them who didn't know what the brackets were for? Just one theory!

Either way, the A195(M) number, and even more so the A1231(M) number, hold no water with me! I don't think they merit a place in the Roader's Digest or the Database.

I can understand the logic of your argument, and that is how it should be if they're going to have confirmation signs like that. But it's not on signs or maps with the (M) and so it's just another anomoly or signing error.

Shall I get my asbestos jacket now for the flaming?

Chris

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