M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
alantan
Member
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 23:20
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Post by alantan »

Roadtripper_Ian wrote:Erm, the NCR viaduct is a wee bit high up there - by the time your proposed slip had made the climb it'd be dropping back down past the A5.
I didn't do the geometric calculations, but I didn't plan for the slip to allow access back to the A5, so it can go right over the A5 next to the A41 viaduct if it likes...
ForestChav wrote:Bearing in mind a lot of M1 traffic is for central London (A5 or A41) there is no need to make the C/D roads intersect with the NCR before the NCR/A41 which just allows weaving. Therefore, any M1 traffic wanting to join the NCR has to do so by either the A41 island or A5 island. Not ideal, but given the height of the NCR viaduct then there isn't much of an option to get M1 traffic directly onto it (only to then pull off for A41 or A5).
I don't think that A5 is a recommended route for traffic into town -- better to use A41 for the West End or A1 for the City, and that is how it is signed too. A5 is a veritable nightmare of traffic jams in Cricklewood and Kilburn, even during quieter times of the day. That's the reason I didn't propose a direct M1 SB to A5 SB link.

The biggest problem will probably be the A406/A41 roundabout interchange, which is already undercapacity, and which would have to take larger volumes of A406 EB to A41 SB and vice-versa.
User avatar
ForestChav
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11081
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 00:00
Location: Nottingham (Bronx of the Midlands)
Contact:

Post by ForestChav »

alantan wrote: I don't think that A5 is a recommended route for traffic into town -- better to use A41 for the West End or A1 for the City, and that is how it is signed too. A5 is a veritable nightmare of traffic jams in Cricklewood and Kilburn, even during quieter times of the day. That's the reason I didn't propose a direct M1 SB to A5 SB link.
A5 is OK outbound in quiet periods. A41 is slightly further and passes through more junctions but for some reason seems to handle the traffic better than the A5.

Cricklewood and Kilburn should be flattened anyway.
alantan wrote:The biggest problem will probably be the A406/A41 roundabout interchange, which is already undercapacity, and which would have to take larger volumes of A406 EB to A41 SB and vice-versa.
The only real solution would be to make Brent Cross totally freeflow which is not going to happen because the land take would be too large. A tunnelled NCR E-bound to A41 S-bound (and vice versa) slip set a la M1/M62 would help but would also need land take and cause disruption during the works.
C, E flat and G go into a bar. The barman says "sorry, we don't serve minors". So E flat walks off, leaving C and G to share an open fifth between them.

Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
alantan
Member
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 23:20
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Post by alantan »

ForestChav wrote: A5 is OK outbound in quiet periods. A41 is slightly further and passes through more junctions but for some reason seems to handle the traffic better than the A5.
Agreed. Coming from Edgware (well almost Canons Park), it is a right pain to get to the A41, having to go down Colindeep Lane or via the Aerodrome and it is much further. The A5 is tempting with its straight route, but is invariably impossible. I've recently taken to using another way to get to the west of the West End, by going down the A4140 through Kingsbury, across Neasden to Willesden Junction and then down to the West Cross Route. Can take 25 minutes on a good day.
ForestChav wrote: Cricklewood and Kilburn should be flattened anyway.
Hear, hear! :twisted:
ForestChav wrote: The only real solution would be to make Brent Cross totally freeflow which is not going to happen because the land take would be too large. A tunnelled NCR E-bound to A41 S-bound (and vice versa) slip set a la M1/M62 would help but would also need land take and cause disruption during the works.
Hmm, but as you wrote, that's not going to happen. To solve the A41/A406 issue properly, you'd really need to demolish the whole interchange and start again. But I think it would be possible to build the following:
  • - A41 NB to A406 WB slip (your typical roundabout-avoidance slip -- there's room for that today)
  • - A406 EB to A41 SB would be difficult as a tunnel, especially because of the river Brent which gets in the way. But there seems to be room for it to be built high over the whole interchange. There's room for it to cross the river and take an arced ascent in the cornet between the interchange and the Shopping Center service road. It would cross diagonally over the interchange, and fit in to join Hendon Way together with Brentfield Gardens.
Problem solved.
User avatar
ForestChav
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11081
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 00:00
Location: Nottingham (Bronx of the Midlands)
Contact:

Post by ForestChav »

Of course, extending the M1 onto Ringway 1 would completely alleviate it!
C, E flat and G go into a bar. The barman says "sorry, we don't serve minors". So E flat walks off, leaving C and G to share an open fifth between them.

Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
DavidBrown
Member
Posts: 8398
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 00:35

Post by DavidBrown »

Here's the map i promised:

Image
User avatar
alantan
Member
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 23:20
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Post by alantan »

ForestChav wrote:Of course, extending the M1 onto Ringway 1 would completely alleviate it!
:pig:

We're talking about things that actually could happen... Not.
User avatar
si404
Member
Posts: 10885
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 13:25
Location: Amersham

Post by si404 »

DavidBrown wrote:Here's the map i promised
looks to me to be the fork layout i have a map of, rather than the roundabout layout that was half built.
"“Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations" Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
Jonathan B4027
Member
Posts: 2238
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2002 21:45
Location: Oxford or Birmingham

Post by Jonathan B4027 »

Heres one I stuck in the gallery ages ago, looks like they wanted the link to go under the M1.

Here
User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3332
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by ManomayLR »

Another thread I'm bringing back to life - as a resident not far from Stirling Corner itself, and someone who has had to negotiate the A41 and A1 for most journeys, I can say the ScratchWood Link would have been a great help. I don't see how they'd be able to build it today - possibly slip roads on the A1 between Apex and Stirling and a spur going to the roundabout - but now the land is privately owned by Mill Hill Golf Course, a compulsory purchase order would be an expensive affair. Though I wonder what advantages there would be to building the link - Highways England has a knack for being able to do anything it deems appropriate...
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7549
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by jackal »

EpicChef wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 13:50 Though I wonder what advantages there would be to building the link - Highways England has a knack for being able to do anything it deems appropriate...
Well, there would be the significant advantage of bypassing the substandard A1 south of Stirling Corner by using the relatively underutilised M1. However, HE does not operate this section of A1 and the chances of TfL building such an improvement are extremely low.
User avatar
Patrick Harper
Member
Posts: 3202
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 14:41
Location: Wiltshire

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by Patrick Harper »

The only way the gap could be filled is by putting M1 J3 to the west of the Midland Main Line tunnels. The route would then skirt the northern side of the wooded area. The space for the A1 interchange would be provisioned by bulldozing the Morrisons and several other business units to the west of the A1.

In addition, the existing Scratchwood roundabout would be completed and separate parallel carriageways would be built between there and the new J3.

This would increase the pressure on Brent Cross considerably I suspect. To relieve it, I would suggest attaching a freeflow A406W to M1N slip from the A406 viaduct, ending between the current northbound/southbound carriageways on the M1. There's still an empty space there that was intended to be used for the southbound carriageway terminating at Ringway 1.
Last edited by Patrick Harper on Thu Jul 30, 2020 18:02, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
trickstat
Member
Posts: 8738
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 14:06
Location: Letchworth Gdn City, Herts

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by trickstat »

Patrick Harper wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 14:38 The only way the gap could be filled is by putting M1 J3 to the west of the Midland Main Line tunnels. The route would then skirt the northern side of the wooded area. The space for the A1 interchange would be provisioned by bulldozing the Morrisons and several other business units to the west of the A1.

In addition, the existing Scratchwood roundabout would be completed and separate parallel carriageways would be built between there and the new J3.

This would increase the pressure on Brent Cross considerably I suspect. To relieve it, I would suggest attaching a freeflow A406E to M1N slip from the A406 viaduct, ending between the current northbound/southbound carriageways on the M1. There's still an empty space there that was intended to be used for the southbound carriageway terminating at Ringway 1.
Given the terrain and the likely opposition there is not a cat in hell's chance of this ever happening. The reason there are rail tunnels is that there is a hill/ridge between Borehamwood & Elstree Station and Scratchwood.
User avatar
thatapanydude
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 21:35
Location: Bedfordshire

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by thatapanydude »

trickstat wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:05
Patrick Harper wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 14:38 The only way the gap could be filled is by putting M1 J3 to the west of the Midland Main Line tunnels. The route would then skirt the northern side of the wooded area. The space for the A1 interchange would be provisioned by bulldozing the Morrisons and several other business units to the west of the A1.

In addition, the existing Scratchwood roundabout would be completed and separate parallel carriageways would be built between there and the new J3.

This would increase the pressure on Brent Cross considerably I suspect. To relieve it, I would suggest attaching a freeflow A406E to M1N slip from the A406 viaduct, ending between the current northbound/southbound carriageways on the M1. There's still an empty space there that was intended to be used for the southbound carriageway terminating at Ringway 1.
Given the terrain and the likely opposition there is not a cat in hell's chance of this ever happening. The reason there are rail tunnels is that there is a hill/ridge between Borehamwood & Elstree Station and Scratchwood.
I am curious as to know why this scheme is considered as a being a no-go? From my view possibly naively isn't this something that the residents of Mill-Hill and Hendon would support - a tunnel solution should be viable to preserve the open space !
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3332
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by ManomayLR »

thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:20
trickstat wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:05
Patrick Harper wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 14:38 The only way the gap could be filled is by putting M1 J3 to the west of the Midland Main Line tunnels. The route would then skirt the northern side of the wooded area. The space for the A1 interchange would be provisioned by bulldozing the Morrisons and several other business units to the west of the A1.

In addition, the existing Scratchwood roundabout would be completed and separate parallel carriageways would be built between there and the new J3.

This would increase the pressure on Brent Cross considerably I suspect. To relieve it, I would suggest attaching a freeflow A406E to M1N slip from the A406 viaduct, ending between the current northbound/southbound carriageways on the M1. There's still an empty space there that was intended to be used for the southbound carriageway terminating at Ringway 1.
Given the terrain and the likely opposition there is not a cat in hell's chance of this ever happening. The reason there are rail tunnels is that there is a hill/ridge between Borehamwood & Elstree Station and Scratchwood.
I am curious as to know why this scheme is considered as a being a no-go? From my view possibly naively isn't this something that the residents of Mill-Hill and Hendon would support - a tunnel solution should be viable to preserve the open space !
As a resident nearby I'd certainly support it - and would start a publicity campaign immediately if the thought of resurrecting the link crossed the minds of the Highways England bosses. If HE make it a motorway, they'll be in charge of it, rather than TFL who botch everything. A411(M) anybody?
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
User avatar
trickstat
Member
Posts: 8738
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 14:06
Location: Letchworth Gdn City, Herts

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by trickstat »

thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:20
trickstat wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:05
Patrick Harper wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 14:38 The only way the gap could be filled is by putting M1 J3 to the west of the Midland Main Line tunnels. The route would then skirt the northern side of the wooded area. The space for the A1 interchange would be provisioned by bulldozing the Morrisons and several other business units to the west of the A1.

In addition, the existing Scratchwood roundabout would be completed and separate parallel carriageways would be built between there and the new J3.

This would increase the pressure on Brent Cross considerably I suspect. To relieve it, I would suggest attaching a freeflow A406E to M1N slip from the A406 viaduct, ending between the current northbound/southbound carriageways on the M1. There's still an empty space there that was intended to be used for the southbound carriageway terminating at Ringway 1.
Given the terrain and the likely opposition there is not a cat in hell's chance of this ever happening. The reason there are rail tunnels is that there is a hill/ridge between Borehamwood & Elstree Station and Scratchwood.
I am curious as to know why this scheme is considered as a being a no-go? From my view possibly naively isn't this something that the residents of Mill-Hill and Hendon would support - a tunnel solution should be viable to preserve the open space !
It is the people of Elstree and Borehamwood who would be not so keen!

Is it feasible to build a road tunnel that would have to go across and over the rail tunnel?

I think the main stumbling block is that the costs may be considered to outweigh the benefits.
User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3332
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by ManomayLR »

trickstat wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 17:11
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:20
trickstat wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:05

Given the terrain and the likely opposition there is not a cat in hell's chance of this ever happening. The reason there are rail tunnels is that there is a hill/ridge between Borehamwood & Elstree Station and Scratchwood.
I am curious as to know why this scheme is considered as a being a no-go? From my view possibly naively isn't this something that the residents of Mill-Hill and Hendon would support - a tunnel solution should be viable to preserve the open space !
It is the people of Elstree and Borehamwood who would be not so keen!
What makes you think that? The place where the link is built would be open fields between one 3-lane carriageway to another. We do go to the Morrison’s quite often, but there definitely are alternatives. If a fast motorway link will take us to Brent Cross in 10 minutes, then I have no objections.
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7549
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by jackal »

EpicChef wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:34
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:20
trickstat wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:05

Given the terrain and the likely opposition there is not a cat in hell's chance of this ever happening. The reason there are rail tunnels is that there is a hill/ridge between Borehamwood & Elstree Station and Scratchwood.
I am curious as to know why this scheme is considered as a being a no-go? From my view possibly naively isn't this something that the residents of Mill-Hill and Hendon would support - a tunnel solution should be viable to preserve the open space !
As a resident nearby I'd certainly support it - and would start a publicity campaign immediately if the thought of resurrecting the link crossed the minds of the Highways England bosses. If HE make it a motorway, they'll be in charge of it, rather than TFL who botch everything. A411(M) anybody?
HE don't go around looking to solve problems on other people's roads. So the fact it would have to be a TfL scheme, when they don't really build strategic roads, is the first thing that makes it impossible.

Then you start looking at all the knock on effects, like the extra pressure on Brent Cross and the A406, and it gets... more impossible.

If we imagine a parallel universe where it does get built, it would logically go between the railway and the golf course. There's a large depot there already so not exactly unspoilt.

As an aside, I think HE are responsible for the A1 to a surprisingly southerly and arbitrary point - possibly Stirling Corner? Doesn't really help here, however, as it's the TfL section that needs relief.
Last edited by jackal on Thu Jul 30, 2020 17:37, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
trickstat
Member
Posts: 8738
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 14:06
Location: Letchworth Gdn City, Herts

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by trickstat »

EpicChef wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 17:16
trickstat wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 17:11
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:20

I am curious as to know why this scheme is considered as a being a no-go? From my view possibly naively isn't this something that the residents of Mill-Hill and Hendon would support - a tunnel solution should be viable to preserve the open space !
It is the people of Elstree and Borehamwood who would be not so keen!
What makes you think that? The place where the link is built would be open fields between one 3-lane carriageway to another. We do go to the Morrison’s quite often, but there definitely are alternatives. If a fast motorway link will take us to Brent Cross in 10 minutes, then I have no objections.
In particular, there are some large houses on the south side of Barnet Lane (the A411) whose gardens appear to end only about 100m from the edge of the woods. The owners of these would definitely make a fuss.

I can't see the link road itself being fast, just a handy cut through.

The thing is that this road would have been useful 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago and has not been built so I cannot see why it would be any different now. I used to commute to work from Stevenage to Hendon for 18 months in the 1980s and this route existing certainly would have taken a lot of traffic away from Apex Corner, Mill Hill Circus and Five Ways.
Phil
Member
Posts: 2271
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 18:03
Location: Burgess Hill,W Sussex, UK

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by Phil »

thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:20
trickstat wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:05
Patrick Harper wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 14:38 The only way the gap could be filled is by putting M1 J3 to the west of the Midland Main Line tunnels. The route would then skirt the northern side of the wooded area. The space for the A1 interchange would be provisioned by bulldozing the Morrisons and several other business units to the west of the A1.

In addition, the existing Scratchwood roundabout would be completed and separate parallel carriageways would be built between there and the new J3.

This would increase the pressure on Brent Cross considerably I suspect. To relieve it, I would suggest attaching a freeflow A406E to M1N slip from the A406 viaduct, ending between the current northbound/southbound carriageways on the M1. There's still an empty space there that was intended to be used for the southbound carriageway terminating at Ringway 1.
Given the terrain and the likely opposition there is not a cat in hell's chance of this ever happening. The reason there are rail tunnels is that there is a hill/ridge between Borehamwood & Elstree Station and Scratchwood.
I am curious as to know why this scheme is considered as a being a no-go? From my view possibly naively isn't this something that the residents of Mill-Hill and Hendon would support - a tunnel solution should be viable to preserve the open space !
Politics and money!

(Note any link would be 100% within the London Borough of Barnet and would thus be the responsibility of TfL to fund)

TfL are broke (and will be for many years to come thanks to Covid-19, the delays to finishing Crossrail and the withdrawal of the operational grant from the DfT*) so can't afford to build new roads.

TfL are anti-car because of the air pollution and congestion they bring. Almost anything which increases traffic throughput (with the notable exception of East London river crossings) goes against that ethos. Congestion along the current A1 / A41 should be eased by having less people drive into the GLA full stop - not moving the problem onward to Cricklewood / Finchley / etc. at the end of the M1.


* NO other Country ANYWHERE ELSE in Europe expects the Transport authority of its capital city to fund day to day running solely from fare receipts / property deals / congestion charge receipts.
Phil
Member
Posts: 2271
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 18:03
Location: Burgess Hill,W Sussex, UK

Re: M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

Post by Phil »

jackal wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 17:30
EpicChef wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:34
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 15:20

I am curious as to know why this scheme is considered as a being a no-go? From my view possibly naively isn't this something that the residents of Mill-Hill and Hendon would support - a tunnel solution should be viable to preserve the open space !
As a resident nearby I'd certainly support it - and would start a publicity campaign immediately if the thought of resurrecting the link crossed the minds of the Highways England bosses. If HE make it a motorway, they'll be in charge of it, rather than TFL who botch everything. A411(M) anybody?
HE don't go around looking to solve problems on other people's roads. So the fact it would have to be a TfL scheme, when they don't really build strategic roads, is the first thing that makes it impossible.

Then you start looking at all the knock on effects, like the extra pressure on Brent Cross and the A406, and it gets... more impossible.

If we imagine a parallel universe where it does get built, it would logically go between the railway and the golf course. There's a large depot there already so not exactly unspoilt.

As an aside, I think HE are responsible for the A1 to a surprisingly southerly and arbitrary point - possibly Stirling Corner? Doesn't really help here, however, as it's the TfL section that needs relief.
Highways Englands responsibility for the A1 Southbound ends either at the A5135 GSJ junction (The Boundary being marked by a drop to 50mph and a "Welcome to the London Borough of Barnet half way along the deceleration lane + main carageway). Northbound its likely the boundary is at the same place (where the speed goes from 50mph to NSL).

Open Streetmap shows the boundary between London and Hertfordshire running along the A1 between the A5135 junction and the A411 roundabout so this is not 100% though. what IS certain is that any Scratchwood link lies wholly within London and thus falls to TfL - not HE to promote.
Post Reply