M1 Junction 3 - Scratchwood Link to A1

M4Simon · Post by **M4Simon** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 23:02

Chris M says (in his M1 Motorway Simulator):
<<Scratchwood Services, which was once Junction 3. J3 was closed a few years after the M1 was opened for no real reason. It would have joined the A41 and A1 at Highwood Hill. Gone but not forgotten. You can actually still see where the roundabout was.>>
I had always thought that the three-quarter roundabout that you see today was built for a possible link to the A1 near Stirling Corner, but the link itself was never built. I have seen it marked on old maps, and I know there is an unofficial track used by maintenance gangs linking the A1 and M1 at this point, but I didn't think that a full link was ever built, let alone removed at some point in the future. Can anyone confirm this?
Simon

c2R · Post by **c2R** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 06:39

I for one would like to see the A1(M) extended south through Stirling Corner to Scratchwood on the M1 This seems to me an obvious next step, and an excellent way of alleviating a good deal of the congestion that builds up on Apex Corner. So as not to ruin the open space too much, the road could easily be put in a cut-and-cover tunnel where it goes under the wooded section.
I agree with you, Simon, in that I don't think a full link was ever built and removed - it would have been far too useful a link for that.
Chris.

Roadtripper_Ian · Post by **Roadtripper_Ian** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 16:55

The link was never built, IIRC because of the environmental impact that it would have. And the road wasn't just an extension of the A1(M)- it is the end of Ringway 3. Immediately east of South Mimms roundabout the M25 carriageways split around an uncomplete GSJ. Originally J23-J25 was listed as the M16. This would have headed south south west from this GSJ, a junction with the A1, then on to M1 J3.
I agree that it would be very useful if built now. Mind you, the traffic it would take away from Apex Corner would hit Henlys Corner or Brent Cross....
Ian

Chris5156 · Post by **Chris5156** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 19:07

M4Man: <<I had always thought that the three-quarter roundabout that you see today was built for a possible link to the A1 near Stirling Corner, but the link itself was never built.>>
Correct, but at the time I wrote that I thought it had existed at one point and been removed.
I'd definitely support the A1(M) being extended here - we could finally do away with South Mimms in its present incarnation because the A1081 link would no longer be required.
Chris

M4Simon · Post by **M4Simon** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 22:11

A690: <<The link was never built, IIRC because of the environmental impact that it would have. >>
I believe this is correct. I was involved in a meeting about 6 years ago where a Herts County Council officer said that the link would not be built because of environmental concerns.
<<And the road wasn't just an extension of the A1(M)- it is the end of Ringway 3. Immediately east of South Mimms roundabout the M25 carriageways split around an uncomplete GSJ. Originally J23-J25 was listed as the M16. This would have headed south south west from this GSJ, a junction with the A1, then on to M1 J3.>>
Whilst I am aware of the M16 section between South Mimms and Waltham Cross, I hadn't appreciated that it was due to tie into the M1 at junction 3. That's a useful piece of information. Many thanks for that.
Cheers,
Simon

stu531 · Post by **stu531** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 22:57

How useful would an M1-A1 link be at Junc 3?! The number of times I've got on the M1 at Staples Corner with a view to eventually making it over to the A1 - and then staying on the M1 'till the M18. And met many queues on the way.

M4Simon · Post by **M4Simon** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 06:47

stu531: <<How useful would an M1-A1 link be at Junc 3?! The number of times I've got on the M1 at Staples Corner with a view to eventually making it over to the A1 - and then staying on the M1 'till the M18. And met many queues on the way.>>
Very useful if you are trying to get from the north circular road to any of the following:

Anywhere east of South Mimms on the M25
Any of the towns and cities on the A1 corridor between Borehamwood and Doncaster including Barnet, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth, Baldock, Sandy, St Neots, Peterborough, Stamford, Grantham, Newark.
Other places north of the M25 and east of the A1.</OL> This link would revolutionise traffic patterns in north London, bringing much needed relief to the A1 between NCR and M25.
Regards,
Simon

Roadtripper_Ian · Post by **Roadtripper_Ian** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 16:25

The only problem with the link would be that it would add more traffic onto the southern section of the M1. Whilst this road can handle it no problem, the problem is that the extra trafic feeds/comes from either the North Circular at Henlys Corner via the Monaco section of the A1, or from the North Circular at Brent Cross. Either way there is a major capacity problem that would need dealing with.
Ian

stu531 · Post by **stu531** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 16:30

.. and maybe therefore an upgrade of the M1/A406 junction is in order? It's still better than the A1/A406 junction - that's just terrible.

M4Simon · Post by **M4Simon** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 22:47

stu531: <<.. and maybe therefore an upgrade of the M1/A406 junction is in order? It's still better than the A1/A406 junction - that's just terrible.>>
I agree (on both counts!)
However, as this mapshows, it's difficult to see how this could be done without building very high (and consequently very long) slips from the Ikea direction onto the M1 north and vice versa. These would be very intrusive and would need substantial demolition. You'd need to get over the A5 and the Railway in order to make this work.
Regards,
Simon

Roadtripper_Ian · Post by **Roadtripper_Ian** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 05:57

The A1/A406 junction is Henlys Corner, and there was a plan to rebuild it that got axed in IIRC 1996. This would have put the North Circular in a kilometer long tunnel which would have separated the two traffic flows. There is lots of waste ground to the south of this complex which is protected by green wooden boards keeping people out of it. No chance of the scheme going ahead now though. BTW, I used to drive Enfield-Oxford fairly regularly, so I know how bad Henlys Corner is in every direction at all times of the day. Even without the tunnel, they could improve the layout massively.
The North Circular has 3 sections which were never rebuilt where the dualling was cancelled at the last minute. In Bounds Green the NCR drops down to a single carriageway, gies through several sets of lights and a TOTSO, and a dodgy tunnel before meeting the other end of the 80s dualling. There was a scheme to connect the two sections of dual carriageway together by putting the NCR is a ctting alongside. They even bought/demolished houses for it (spot the boarded up houses!) before cancelling it. After that comes Henlys Corner discussed above. Next junction down is Golders Green Road with another flat junction and traffic lights. NCR was to have dropped into a cut and cover tunnel removing the junction completely. Cancelled.
The A40 Westway is even worse, with several flat junctions. At each all the houses in the way of an underpass have been bought/demolished, and the scheme was still cancelled.

Gavin · Post by **Gavin** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 16:10

The M1 / A1 link at scratchwood wa snever meant to go asfar as the M25, if you look at the link you will see that there was another seperate road actually planned between the M25/ A1(M) junction and the M1. This would have carried the traffic going to the M1 from the M25. If you look at the M1 M25 interchange there was never any intention to provide a M25 to M1 southbound and viceversa. This connection being provided for by the link road shown on the scan. Equally M25 to M1 traffic coming from the west was provided for by the link road from Rickmansworth through to Jct. 5. This would have allowed the M1 / M25 junction to exist without demand for the access roads to and from M1 south.
http://groups.msn.com/TheSABRERoadsWebs ... hotoID=882
Id have imagined that the road structure had been planned and was different to what exists today, having to rely on that middling interchange that merges with the M25 M1 junction. Going down that road and then linking to the M1 as required, dont think that this was ever really planned to be the solution.

Gavin · Post by **Gavin** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 16:26

http://www.witchypoo.freeserve.co.uk/m16.jpg
Another confirmation of the existance of a link directly to the M1 from the M25, if you look at the link you see that it moves down towards the M1 not in the manner that the M25 actually flows. The M25 goes North West from the A1 following what was the A6 and then curving round to the M1. Where as this map shows a motorway going to the M1. It also shows junction 3 and the proposed stirling corner roundabout. This road would still very much improve the traffic flows in London by removing traffic from the A1 and chanelling it down towards the A406 NCR. This could very well be a dual carriageway and built most of the way in a cut and cover tunnel.
Gavin

Roadtripper_Ian · Post by **Roadtripper_Ian** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 21:57

Guys, I stand corrected. I had it in my head that the original M25 plan had it merging in with the M1 at junction 3, then splitting off round the north side of Watford.
Maybe I was confusing this with one of the ringway plans that used the A404 in Pinner as part of the route.....
Anyways, build the damn link to Scratchwood. Of course, junction 3 itself would need a massive upgrade as the existing bridges are very narrow and close together

Ian

Gavin · Post by **Gavin** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 15:35

Isnt this junction a roundabout that was not completed ? Looking at it and from memory it would be easy to turn into a junction using the existing bridges, just complete the roundabout and add on the link to the A1. The bridges really dont need to be widened as it was built to be a roundabout originally, the M1 access northbound to London Gateway services is directly through a slip road much earlier than this junction so the slip road up to the junction would be for traffic going to the A1 link. As you know traffic comming from the A1 to the M1 would be predominately going southbound so would not need to cross the bridge, the proposed slip road would split from the carriageway and filter onto the M1 south sliproad in a smooth manner avoiding the roundabout itself. There is ample land there to construct the slip road from the M1 to the A1 in a smooth and rounded manner so that the traffic is directed in the manner desired, once again traffic going from the M1 southbound to the A1 link could be routed through a merging lane that tkaes this into account. You would have a basic roundabout but with simplified flows according to traffic flow through the junction. M1 to the services from the southbound direction and back to the M1 south would require careful planning. Having one lane slip roads really shouldnt be much of a problem after all there are many one lane slip roads about and they dont slow up the traffic much, in fact they make for easier merging where it counts and make for a safer flow. You have me thinking about this and I guess I will end up posting a junction revised design for this junction soon...........
Not that it really matters..........
Gavin

Nic · Post by **Nic** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 09:51

Sorry sorry sorry. I know how Sabristi Purists don't like dragging up old threads, but this was best I could add to.

How much do we know about the proposed link road?
In a 1965 Johnston's County Motoring Atlas, the link is shown as Motorway standard. Its all shown as proposed motorway, M1 plus link.

Peter_B5470 · Post by **Peter_B5470** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:31

Hi Gavin
The two links you have posted do not work

My idea for Scratchwood (years ago) is build the link to theA1 and put a park-and-ride station on the adjacent railway

Gav · Post by **Gav** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:42

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 17:10

This is a long time ago and Sabre moved about - also I think that the other links had expired. I dont have any more information for them either.

Gav

steve · Post by **steve** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:47

Have a peep on hunkyash01's site and you will find a decent plan for this link.

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:48

Nic_A47 wrote:How much do we know about the proposed link road?
In a 1965 Johnston's County Motoring Atlas, the link is shown as Motorway standard. Its all shown as proposed motorway, M1 plus link.

It is referred to as "M1 Stirling Corner Link" in documentation. It is always listed along with other motorways, so I guess that answers the standard debate!