User talk:Viator/archive1311
Irish on route lists
I noticed you've started adding Irish on details of signposted routes in the ROI, and I've started doing the same. To make things a little easier, I've created Template:Irish to save typing. Have a look at Kinsale for an example of how it might be used. Ritchie333 (talk) 15:14, 7 June 2013 (BST)
- Thanks for letting me know about that, Ritchie. I'll have a look in detail as soon as I can (just trying to finish dealing with a bunch of R-road corrections at the moment, before I have to go out). I've lately been trying to tidy up and improve consistency in the display of route information on the Irish pages as I've come across them (especially since no-one else appears to have been doing a great deal in that area recently: quite a lot of information has become outdated on the Irish pages).
- In an effort to cut down on visual clutter I've gone for elimination of the slashes (since the italics UPPERCASE distinction already identifies the pairings) and for use of the raised dot (as in road list templates) in place of commas to separate items. For some examples, see: Ardee, Dunfanaghy, Ennistimon.
- I'd like to add an irish parameter for Irish-language names to the relevant templates and wonder if you'd be able to help me with this. I've been using welsh because it has the desired effect -- even though the names aren't, of course, Welsh! The problem with gaelic (even though Irish is sometimes called Gaelic) is that it is designed for use with placenames in (Scottish) Gaelic and forces certain other (colour) changes which are not strictly appropriate for Ireland. irish can be identical in syntax/effect to the present welsh, but it will look a little less odd to potential editors and, of course, be the platform for any future distinctions we may wish to make.
- Okay, I've added "irish" into the routebox. At the moment it behaves identically to welsh, but can be changed. One of the good reasons for using the template is we can make a decision on whether or not to use slashes, spaces or newlines (it would be nice, if practical, to get the Irish above the English in the correct proportions as seen on signs), and make a single change that will instantly apply to all of them. Ritchie333 (talk) 17:06, 7 June 2013 (BST)
- Wiki:Project R roads might be of use, Kevin. The sub pages (by 100s) have the official route descriptions from '94 and '12, so the changes can be recorded. I plan to work on southern Ireland after getting the North's A roads beyond stubs (N roads first). IIRC, I expanded the data on project R Roads (and added pages for routes we didn't have) in the hope that Vlad would have a look after going through the 1922 Road Lists for Northern Ireland. Ritchie has done some good work on Ireland recently Si404 (talk) 17:39, 7 June 2013 (BST)
- Are you talking about me behind my back? ;-)
- I suppose I'm after a new project now I've completed the whole of the 1922 road lists. I don't have as much time as I did earlier, however, and my major difficulty with Ireland is that I know hardly anything about the place. I can certainly follow the list of R roads as it exists at present but I could well miss out something important (such as "This was the main road to Galway until the 1970s", for example). Vlad (talk) 21:48, 7 June 2013 (BST)
Many thanks for the pointer, Si. I've been building up my own R-road lists (with info from the same Irish legislative sources) -- see some samples that I've put on a sandbox page at User:Viator/Sandbox Bóithre réigiúnacha; it will be useful to have the cross-reference. -- Viator (talk) 19:26, 10 June 2013 (BST)
- I'm gradually getting the hang of where ROI roads are, so I'm willing to tackle a few more of them. Hopefully later this year I'll get a chance to drive some more roads in person, particularly the N6xs and N7xs that go round the coast. Bob is also going through the R roads and getting them all up to speed. Incidentally, I had a brief look at a Barts atlas on the weekend with T and L numbers and the Ls are, well, a complete mess. (And, AFAIK, they never appeared on signs). Ritchie333 (talk) 10:07, 11 June 2013 (BST)
Sorry for the delay, Ritchie (had a few days away -- and I'm still tied to a home PC). Re L(ink) roads, I don't remember them being really much of a mess: I had a petrol-company map (Esso, I think, but unfortunately I can't lay my hands on it at present) which represented them pretty clearly. And I remember from my visits to Ireland in the 50s and 60s that the L numbers certainly did appear on the fingerpost type signs, at the pointed end of the relevant arms (see examples at http://www.irish-place-names.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/signpost-cavan.png and http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/2x3905354/signpost_glashnegh_co_monaghan_ireland_1806147.jpg). -- Viator (talk) 19:32, 14 June 2013 (BST)
- By "a mess", I mean (unless I'm mistaken) there's no logical pattern to how the numbers were allocated. Ritchie333 (talk) 11:00, 17 June 2013 (BST)
Irish signage
Hi Kevin - just a thought! The original SVG files are a better resolution than the simple JPG files, and are also scalable so people can use them as different sizes. It's probably worth grabbing them rather than the low-res JPG versions to go on here. Steven (talk) 13:54, 15 June 2013 (BST)
- You are almost certainly 100% correct, Steven (I say "almost" only because I don't really know what I'm talking about in these matters!). I've uploaded JPG versions only because that's the format I'm used to handling in the case of my own graphic files (and to which I'd therefore converted, for my own use, what had originally been SVG files on Wikimedia). Will bear your comment in mind henceforth! -- Viator (talk) 15:01, 15 June 2013 (BST)
John o'Groats
Hi Kevin,
Be careful when renaming pages to include non-alphanumeric characters, as sometimes it can cause problems. I think apostrophes are OK, but keep a close eye out for anything weird happening.
Steven (talk) 11:39, 29 July 2013 (BST)
- OK, thanks: I'll keep an eye out. (I know that the ampersand is definitely one to avoid, and I've always replaced that by "and" in page names whenever I've come across it.) -- Viator (talk) 11:49, 29 July 2013 (BST)
The B-whateveritis in Dudley
Hi Kevin,
I notice you've tagged the page as needing deletion - by policy we have kept pages in the past for mapping errors that aren't stunningly obvious, just so people don't come across them at a later date and add them back again. The critical thing is that the page clearly needs to state that its a mapping error for (correct number), and that it gets added to the "disputed numbers" category. Steven (talk) 13:18, 19 November 2013 (GMT)
- Point taken. It does seem a bit of a sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut approach, though, to create a whole article for every cartographical error of this kind. Google Maps' mistakes alone would potentially lead to the creation of scores of new articles! Wouldn't a mention (headtab if necessary) suffice in the text of any article to which users might be wrongly led as the result of a mapping error? (To the effect: "If you've come here looking for the B9454 Mucklekirk to Weekirk road, please go instead to the article on the B9545" -- more elegantly worded, of course.) I do notice a tendency, BTW, for map-makers to get particularly befuddled by combinations involving the numbers 4 and 5: what I call the "Fife 4 Forfar 5" football score syndrome...
- Have in the meantime made a tidy-up of the existing B4588-related articles. This kind of thing can be a bit head-spinning, so please let me know if I've introduced any new errors! -- Viator (talk) 18:27, 19 November 2013 (GMT)
A4538
Hi Kevin,
Err, yeah, the A4538 did extend to Evesham over the current A44 route - I've just checked with a pile of 1990s mapping and they all agree - at the time the A44 took the now-B4084 from about 1994 onwards. The situation does seem to have changed in 2002 to the present routings. Steven (talk) 17:57, 25 November 2013 (GMT)
Sorry about that, Steven. I was going to return soon to that road (as I'm looking at a "bundle" of roads in the Evesham area at the moment), but yes, I did miss out one renumbering, so thanks for the pointer. Some notes and observations:
A. Hansard 1 Feb 1995
> The road through Wyre Piddle is the old B4084, recently reclassified as the A4538
My comment: This would appear to confirm that the road through Wyre was indeed the A4538, between the time (circa 1994?) that it ceased to be the B4084 and the time that it became the A44 (2004?).
B. Worcester Evening News 8/10 Jan 2002
> The collision [...] at the Throckmorton junction of the A4538 at Wyre Piddle
> the crash at the junction of the A4538 in Lower Moor [near Wyre Piddle]
C. Wikipedia : A44 road
> In 2004 a bypass was constructed around Wyre Piddle. As a result, the A44 was rerouted down the A4538
D. Sabre Wiki : B4084 (as at 25 Nov 2013)
> completion of the Wyre Piddle bypass in the 2000s [...] allowed the routes of the A44 and B4084 between Evesham and Worcester to be swapped
My comment: However, if Source A is correct, then it was the routes of the A44 and the A4538 that were swapped (and the number B4084 resuscitated to apply to a down-graded ex-A44).
> The entire route of the B4084 therefore became [part of the] A44
My comment: Once again, this would appear to be untrue in the light of Source A (the road with which the A44 swapped routes no longer being the B4084).
> The spur near Stoulton [Egdon to S of Windmill Hill] was classified as [the] B4084 [a]round the same time [as the reclassification of the Martin Hussingtree to Spetchley section, i.e. circa 1962]. This was the only section of [the] B4084 not to change its number in the 2000s
My comment: I'm not so sure about this date for the upgrading of the Egdon to Windmill Hill spur: my 1990 map shows it as the B4084, but not my 1979 one (17 years after the opening of the M5 J.4 to J.8). Any thoughts?
Have now "amended my amendments" to the A4538 article. --Viator (talk) 21:26, 25 November 2013 (GMT)
- Wow - that's a lot of stuff. Basically, I think the B4084 page is a bit rubbish, and so probably needs serious rewriting. As for the spur, annoyingly it doesn't appear in Bart's mapping as being classified at all, and it's too small to appear on Route Planning Maps. However, I have found a 1968 map showing the spur as classified. Steven (talk) 20:15, 27 November 2013 (GMT)
- Basically, I think the B4084 page is a bit rubbish, and so probably needs serious rewriting. That had been my "I couldn't possibly comment" thought too, but I did want to feel I had some backing, so thanks for that observation, Steven. For all that others get a bit aereated now and again about some of my contributions to one (usually transport/communications-related) wiki or another, I am in fact something of a wuss when it comes to edit wars..! -- Viator (talk) 23:02, 27 November 2013 (GMT)