Types of VMS

[DavidBrown]

AIUI, MS2's are exactly like MS3's, just of an older design. The ones in your fourth and fifth pictures are MS3s - I think that the ones nar the Forth Bridge are MS2's.

Your final example is the so-called MS4. Just out of interest - are they VSL signals on the other carriageway? I didn't think they'd been used there.

[Glen]

AIUI, MS2's are exactly like MS3's, just of an older design. The ones in your fourth and fifth pictures are MS3s - I think that the ones nar the Forth Bridge are MS2's.

Yeah, that was my thinking.

Your final example is the so-called MS4. Just out of interest - are they VSL signals on the other carriageway? I didn't think they'd been used there.

No, AFAIK, they are just used for the normal motorway lane signals (advisory limits, red Xs etc) and are just there to provide signals at greater frequency on the approach to the bridge as the old ones like the first picture are still there with the newer ones between.

[Glen]

In the north of the country, such signage, as you would imagine, is as rare as hens' teeth, but MS2s are to be found on approach to areas prone to winter closures (A9, A82, A93, A96, A939 etc).

I wouldn't say they are rare as there are quite a few modern MS3 covering the trunk roads in the North of Scotland. But as opposed to having frequent signs like on motorways with , they are at strategic loctions to give information relating to the routes like closures, adverse weather or ferry sailings.

They are placed at places like the start of routes, approaching other trunk roads or after joining from other trunk roads, so this gives pretty good coverage to be able to give most trunk traffic the information on the route ahead they need.
If you look at the locations of VMS around Inverness and the Black Isle you'll see that pretty much any route you take between the trunk routes (A9, A82, A96, A835) you'll see that you pass at least one VMS that will be able to inform you about which ever road you will be travelling on.

EDIT:

In Scotland, we don't seem to use MS1s anywhere - even on the likes of the M8 or M74/A74(M).

i think the only place they are used in Scotland is on the FRB where they are used for the advisory limits on the bridge itself (with the gantries used on the S/B approach).

[ManomayLR]

..and more modern examples like this

That's not an MS3- it's the newer MS4 full matrix sign.
MS4 signs can not only be mounted on gantries as shown above, which is often on SMART motorways but also on the N/B approach to the Dartford Tunnel, but they can also be cantilever mounted in 2 fashions: the "hockey stick" where the MS4 appears to hang off the cantilever:



(Example from M1)

but they can also be mounted in what I call the F structure and you'll see why: the cantilever is F shaped with the MS4 in between. An example again on the M1:



The sign is currently restricting vehicle speed to 60mph due to poor visibility.

I'll give another M1 photo of a gantry MS4:



The sign reads "Congestion Use Hardshoulder."

Hope that's cleared things up about the MS4.

[DavidBrown]

Err, EpicChef - you do realise that the last post to this thread was nearly 10 years ago?! And nobody ever said that the more modern example was an MS3.

[jusme]

Well to bring it up-to-date, what kind of VMS is this, and what does it show? Seem to be a lot of them on M6 J10-13 ALR section. I've never been (un)lucky enough to see them lit:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.70234 ... !1e1?hl=en

[sotonsteve]

Those are for lane closures; a fixed taper location. The idea is that during roadworks and such those light up rather than yellow signs being put out every 200 yards.

[jusme]

Those are for lane closures; a fixed taper location. The idea is that during roadworks and such those light up rather than yellow signs being put out every 200 yards.

Makes sense. I did see one partially lit for a while when they were being installed, an off-white rectangle was showing (looked like a fault). Seemed to be an RGB (full colour) matrix.

[ManomayLR]

Those are for lane closures; a fixed taper location. The idea is that during roadworks and such those light up rather than yellow signs being put out every 200 yards.

But in that case:

1) why are they not used during incidents when red X is displayed on MS4

2) why would MS4 not be used in roadworks?

Anyway- I've never seen these signs lit so would be good to hear more.

[Jeni]

Those are for lane closures; a fixed taper location. The idea is that during roadworks and such those light up rather than yellow signs being put out every 200 yards.

Though in reality never used.

L1 closure on M6 southbound this evening used manual signs rather than these.

[ManomayLR]

Those are for lane closures; a fixed taper location. The idea is that during roadworks and such those light up rather than yellow signs being put out every 200 yards.

Though in reality never used.

L1 closure on M6 southbound this evening used manual signs rather than these.

Disappointing- are these supposedly defunct mini signs a waste of money?

The M5 smart motorway animated tour showed the sign being used: it flashed a wicket sign and '200 yards'. Which is funny because the MS4 signs use red X.

[brummie_rob]

Those are for lane closures; a fixed taper location. The idea is that during roadworks and such those light up rather than yellow signs being put out every 200 yards.

Though in reality never used.

L1 closure on M6 southbound this evening used manual signs rather than these.

Disappointing- are these supposedly defunct mini signs a waste of money?

The M5 smart motorway animated tour showed the sign being used: it flashed a wicket sign and '200 yards'. Which is funny because the MS4 signs use red X.

Since the smart motorway opened, I commute down here every night between 9pm-10pm aside from weekends and I've never seen these small taper location VMS used at all. Which quite frankly is ridiculous.

There was even a week closure of lane 1 before Christmas where they put out the yellow signs and prior to that the last few months have seen lane closures along here using yellow signs which mean the police have to stop the traffic whilst they put them out!

[ManomayLR]

Though in reality never used.

L1 closure on M6 southbound this evening used manual signs rather than these.

Disappointing- are these supposedly defunct mini signs a waste of money?

The M5 smart motorway animated tour showed the sign being used: it flashed a wicket sign and '200 yards'. Which is funny because the MS4 signs use red X.

Since the smart motorway opened, I commute down here every night between 9pm-10pm aside from weekends and I've never seen these small taper location VMS used at all. Which quite frankly is ridiculous.

There was even a week closure of lane 1 before Christmas where they put out the yellow signs and prior to that the last few months have seen lane closures along here using yellow signs which mean the police have to stop the traffic whilst they put them out!

J4A-6? Is this operational yet? If so, during the Xmas lane closure, did they illuminate the Red X symbol and lane diversion symbols?
Also, in the same animated tour, the simulation of the taper sign showed '800 yards' not '200 yards'!

[brummie_rob]

Disappointing- are these supposedly defunct mini signs a waste of money?

The M5 smart motorway animated tour showed the sign being used: it flashed a wicket sign and '200 yards'. Which is funny because the MS4 signs use red X.

Since the smart motorway opened, I commute down here every night between 9pm-10pm aside from weekends and I've never seen these small taper location VMS used at all. Which quite frankly is ridiculous.

There was even a week closure of lane 1 before Christmas where they put out the yellow signs and prior to that the last few months have seen lane closures along here using yellow signs which mean the police have to stop the traffic whilst they put them out!

J4A-6? Is this operational yet? If so, during the Xmas lane closure, did they illuminate the Red X symbol and lane diversion symbols?
Also, in the same animated tour, the simulation of the taper sign showed '800 yards' not '200 yards'!

Sorry, I meant J13 on the M6 by Stafford. Lane 1 southbound was closed due to a barrier defect on the bridge over one of the rivers. They didn't use any VMS to show the lane closure, instead they just used roadwork lane closure signs and a fixed plate 50mph speed restriction.

[ManomayLR]

Since the smart motorway opened, I commute down here every night between 9pm-10pm aside from weekends and I've never seen these small taper location VMS used at all. Which quite frankly is ridiculous.

There was even a week closure of lane 1 before Christmas where they put out the yellow signs and prior to that the last few months have seen lane closures along here using yellow signs which mean the police have to stop the traffic whilst they put them out!

J4A-6? Is this operational yet? If so, during the Xmas lane closure, did they illuminate the Red X symbol and lane diversion symbols?
Also, in the same animated tour, the simulation of the taper sign showed '800 yards' not '200 yards'!

Sorry, I meant J13 on the M6 by Stafford. Lane 1 southbound was closed due to a barrier defect on the bridge over one of the rivers. They didn't use any VMS to show the lane closure, instead they just used roadwork lane closure signs and a fixed plate 50mph speed restriction.

That's a bit silly- why upgrade to a system with all this 'smart' MIDAS and VMS and promote about it only not to use it when it should be used? It costs a lot to upgrade and advertise- is this another waste of money?

[brummie_rob]

It is an odd choice. I can only presume it is to distinguish between what is 'normal smart flow speeds' and 'roadworks', but it still doesn't make sense especially from a safety point of view too.

[ManomayLR]

I agree.

[jusme]

Well to bring it up-to-date, what kind of VMS is this, and what does it show? Seem to be a lot of them on M6 J10-13 ALR section. I've never been (un)lucky enough to see them lit:



https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.70234 ... !1e1?hl=en

Yay, finally saw a brace of these in action - M6 J17-16 s/b (being ignored, of course):

https://youtu.be/-yd6YiWp7Mc

Cute little things, if a little shy

[NICK 647063]

I did wonder what these were for as they added them on the ALR M1 section at Wakefield last year but have never seen them lit.

[ais523]

Ugh, what a terrible (and unsafe!) use of contradictory signs there.

The little signs, showing three "lane closing" signs (looking like a no-through-route sign), are correct. They give the distance to the lane closure, and allow people to move over at their own pace.

However, the MS4s are showing three red Xes! So they officially and legally closed the lane well before the actual taper. This is clearly a problem, given that there was no need to close the lanes that far back, as it's likely to reduce compliance with red Xes, which are legally binding and safety-critical. (This is particularly annoying because at least the TSRGD allows the "lane closing" no-through-route-shaped sign to be used on an MS4, having a similar functionality to a red X without being legally binding, and thus letting people move over at their own pace; it would be silly if the MS4s have a particular sign approved for this situation and yet are incapable of showing them.)

We can see from the video that vehicles are ignoring the red Xes. Given the actual reason for them, they presumably concluded that it was safe to do so. So if we aren't confining the use of red Xes to safety-critical situations, we can expect them to also be widely ignored in the situations where their safety meaning is actually necessary.

(For what it's worth, I believe that proper selection of advisory versus mandatory signs would be a cheap and effective way to reduce accidents. If you place a mandatory sign in a place where it's unnecessary, it tends to get ignored, and then you have wildly differing speeds and/or lane disciplines between the people who obey the law and follow it, and the people who obey their road sense and ignore it. If you place an advisory sign in such a situation, the traffic acts in a more uniform way, which is safer.)