Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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jackal
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jackal »

DavidBrown wrote:Belatedly here's my take on it ....
First of all, it looks really nice - like a recognizable interchange design, unlike the others (including mine) :)

Unfortunately the radius is very tight on the northern loop - I had a loop in the same spot, which was about 100m radius, but you have the M1sb->new expressway ramp also squeezing into the same space, meaning the radius is down to 75m or less. Worse, you have intense weaving between the two loops. Given this, the southern loop and northbound A421/expressway mainline would have to be signalized.

You also seem to have removed a lot of the necessary movements involving the A421 to Milton Keynes and A507. You cannot just disconnect A roads from the strategic network like this. I don't see any way to add these without a fundamental redesign.

But I do really like the concept of a separate junction along the A421 to serve movements to/from the M1 North.
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JohnnyMo
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by JohnnyMo »

jackal wrote:
DavidBrown wrote:Belatedly here's my take on it ....
...
You also seem to have removed a lot of the necessary movements involving the A421 to Milton Keynes and A507. You cannot just disconnect A roads from the strategic network like this. I don't see any way to add these without a fundamental redesign.

But I do really like the concept of a separate junction along the A421 to serve movements to/from the M1 North.
I use A507 to Jct 13 to access the M1 Northbound & Milton Keynes as does a lot of traffic.

There is very little need for a A421 / M1(North) as that traffic would use Jct 14, having said that I had moved some of the M1 slip roads to the county boundary to allow the longest weave between traffic for/from MK & M1.
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jackal
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jackal »

Here's another design, using a modified version of David Brown's 'J13a' idea.
M1 J13 final.png
M1 J13a.png
J6onM27
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by J6onM27 »

My variation of the junction that provides a south MK expressway
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mr_roggger
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by mr_roggger »

I'm very much enjoying all of the proposed layouts but fear that we'll end up with a cheap, inappropriate solution for many of the reasons outlines above.
wrinkly wrote:Stage 3 report now out:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... e-3-report
With regard to the document above, I agree that no detailed descriptions of the route are given to avoid disputes etc. at this early stage, but surely there must already exist pretty detailed route designs for all of the options and sub-options to get the cost down to the closest £1M, journey times down to the closest 1s and worker catchment areas accurate to 1 person - those are pretty accurate numbers!

Also, the map on p. 39 of the document (p. 41 in *.pdf pages) shows a yellow link North of Abingdon, south of Oxford. This must be incorrect as there is no "current route improvement" there. The existing A34 doesn't cross the railway (shown as EWR on said map), largely following the route of Oxford sub option S1. The green line for Option A should continue to the yellow/Oxford sub option S1 junction.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Philip_Baum »

J6onM27 wrote:My variation of the junction that provides a south MK expressway
That route looks brilliant in my opinion. The more southern route I've seen proposed by fellow Sabristi would have an adverse visual impact on the landscape setting of Woburn which includes a lot of woodland and would have an adverse noise impact on the area too. This route avoids that although it is difficult crossing the A5130 from the M1 given there is an almost impenetrable wall of development from Wavendon to Aspley Guise. The only way through appears to be over the Cross End golf course along the back of residential properties which front the A5130. Once over the A5130 a cheaper option could be to just plug the new route from the M1 into Bletcham Way. However, an expressway should really be off-line to be free of the MK roundabouts and, once over the A5130, it would need a 90 degree left bend to direct it towards the railway line with which it would then cross and then bear right to run parallel with it until Brickhill Street where it would bear left to run parallel with this to the A5 roundabout. A more expensive option avoiding the 90 degree bend would be to dig two tunnels (one for each direction) under Wyevale Garden Centre and Frosts Landscape Construction.

I also think it is necessary at M1 jct 13 to provide free flow for traffic joining the A421 towards the A1 from the M1 from London and traffic joining the M1 towards London from the A421 from the A1. Traffic from the western M25 uses this route to reach the A1 to avoid the northern M25.
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Truvelo
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Truvelo »

mr_roggger wrote:I'm very much enjoying all of the proposed layouts but fear that we'll end up with a cheap, inappropriate solution for many of the reasons outlines above.
Do we also know if a J13a is part of the proposals?
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ais523
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by ais523 »

It looks like everyone's having a go at constructing plans for the junction, so here's my attempt (mapping data © OpenStreetMap contributors):
m1j13plans.png
This is an "inside-out octopus" design with a roundabout at each corner, allowing the junction to be fit into a smaller space via the use of tighter turns, and allowing access to the local roads (something that a regular octopus can't do). The geometry isn't "final", rather it's a product of my lack of art skills; the southwest roundabout should probably be moved further from the junction to give more room for the loops. The "collector road" running parallel to the M1 to the left of the diagram is just a slip road that merges into the M1 a little off-picture. I'm assuming that there will be a fairly low speed limit on the turning movements, but probably not signals; there are no conflicts between any of the 12 "main movements" between the expressway and the M1, so the junction should flow quite freely despite not being freeflow (and it could be made freeflow simply via adding cones, although that would cut off some local movements and lead to a junction with excessively tight corners and the occasional hairpin turn; the roundabouts help mask those issues, and in fact some real-life junctions contain apparently unnecessary roundabouts for what I presume is this sort of reason).

One way to think of the design is as a large anticlockwise stackabout with a smaller roundabout in each corner for local movements; you join on the inside and leave on the outside (thus meaning the major right turns have no conflicts), and it's possible to loop round the whole junction anticlockwise until you reach an exit for the road you want, thus it's full access (although some local accesses, like A421-from-Milton-Keynes eastbound to A421-expressway northbound, require navigating pretty much the whole junction, they're still at least possible). Dedicated left-turn sliproads are added to ensure that the left turns have no conflicts either. (Unusually, they're on the inside of the junction; placing them on the outside would conflict with the local roads, and there's an obvious place to put them which works out pretty neatly.) If it turns out to be necessary to give some of the local routes shorter paths, then some of the roads connecting the roundabout could be made two-way, thus converting the design into a "magic stackabout" (and one which still has no conflicts between the twelve major movements!).
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6637
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by 6637 »

That inside out octopus is pretty creative, and could work.

Another thought about junction design: more options become available if the new expressway doesn't arrive on the same line as the A421. Here's one option, with the new road coming in at a new J13A instead of meeting the A421 at J13.
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ais523
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by ais523 »

How much weaving room does that design give? On a motorway, you need at least 2km between junction in order to give every vehicle time to get into the right lane (because joining traffic has to cross leaving traffic), and often extra lanes if you're close to the minimum so that straight-on traffic can get out of the way of the weavers. You'd probably also want to freeflow the southwestbound expressway straight-on (with that design there's a roundabout no matter which way you go).
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by 6637 »

ais523 wrote:How much weaving room does that design give? On a motorway, you need at least 2km between junction in order to give every vehicle time to get into the right lane (because joining traffic has to cross leaving traffic), and often extra lanes if you're close to the minimum so that straight-on traffic can get out of the way of the weavers.
Ah, true. Turns out there's only about 1km between the merge and diverge points. You can probably fix this by pointing the trumpet in the other direction.
You'd probably also want to freeflow the southwestbound expressway straight-on (with that design there's a roundabout no matter which way you go).
I don't think that roundabout would be too much of a problem, but if a freeflow option is necessary you can always just put a loop in like this.
junc.png
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thatapanydude
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by thatapanydude »

Here is my redesign of j13. With the A421 running alongside the M1.
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A1/A1(M) >>> M1
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jackal
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jackal »

mr_roggger wrote: With regard to the document above, I agree that no detailed descriptions of the route are given to avoid disputes etc. at this early stage, but surely there must already exist pretty detailed route designs for all of the options and sub-options to get the cost down to the closest £1M, journey times down to the closest 1s and worker catchment areas accurate to 1 person - those are pretty accurate numbers!
They make no claim that the estimate is accurate to the nearest £1m, nor even nearest £1bn. The numbers you are talking about are just an order of magnitude estimate.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by owen b »

thatapanydude wrote:Here is my redesign of j13. With the A421 running alongside the M1.
I like the general idea, in fact I posted a similar idea on the M1 J13 thread when it was upgraded a few years ago. However, I'd add M1 south facing slips at J13a. I reckon there's a lot of MK<->M1 south traffic which you wouldn't want clogging up J13. So long as you didn't retain M1 north facing slips at J13 I don't think weaving would be an issue.
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mapboy
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by mapboy »

I decided it was my turn to get the crayons out...
M1J13small.jpg
I've found it quite a challenge to make a decent design - I've based around a C/D setup, with a mix of free-flow links.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by andrewwoods »

According to the Oxford Mail
HIGHWAY bosses are set to recommend a new £3.5bn expressway passes south of Oxford through protected Green Belt land, it has been claimed.

Senior figures say the route – known as 'Option A' – is favoured by officials developing plans for the Oxford-Cambridge Expressway.

It would see a new carriageway branch off the A34 and pass between the city and Abingdon, before crossing the M40 at Wheatley and proceeding north of Aylesbury to Milton Keynes.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Glom »

Well that green belt isn't being used for anything else.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by SteveA30 »

I can't remember where I found this or, how long I've had it, although it is dated 2014.
The Oxford- M1 section is shown as an option. Full Smarting shown as well.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by crowntown100 »

SteveA30 wrote:I can't remember where I found this or, how long I've had it, although it is dated 2014.
The Oxford- M1 section is shown as an option. Full Smarting shown as well.
It came from the original report for the Road Investment Strategy.
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jackal
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jackal »

andrewwoods wrote:According to the Oxford Mail
HIGHWAY bosses are set to recommend a new £3.5bn expressway passes south of Oxford through protected Green Belt land, it has been claimed.

Senior figures say the route – known as 'Option A' – is favoured by officials developing plans for the Oxford-Cambridge Expressway.

It would see a new carriageway branch off the A34 and pass between the city and Abingdon, before crossing the M40 at Wheatley and proceeding north of Aylesbury to Milton Keynes.
Plan showing Option A:
Oxford to Cambridge.PNG
The stage 3 report also gives a total length (A34-A421) for Option A of 40 miles, of which 29 miles is new build and 11 miles is widening.

Cost is £3.45 billion, though this seems to include 'conversion of sections of the A34, A421, A428 and A1 to Expressway standard to complete the route between the M4 and A14/M11'.
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