Towns that are absent from signs

[Osthagen]

AFAIK, the A65 doesn’t start signing Leeds until you’re about 35 to 40 miles away (correct me if I’m wrong). I’d personally sign it right from the M6 as the Superprimary Destination at the end of the road.

It also strikes me as odd why there is no signage to Manchester or Liverpool on the A55/A494 Eastbound until you hit Buckley. The policy should be to sign one or the other (preferably the former) just like with the A65, as the Superprimary Destination.

You don’t really get any signs to Dalkeith on the A68 until you’re about 10 miles away. While I don’t think it should be made a Primary Destination, Dalkeith is one of the few places of note between the A720 and Jedburgh. And as such, it might make sense to give it more signage.

[owen b]

AFAIK, the A65 doesn’t start signing Leeds until you’re about 35 to 40 miles away (correct me if I’m wrong). I’d personally sign it right from the M6 as the Superprimary Destination at the end of the road.

Presumably the thinking is that most potential traffic heading for Leeds via M6 J36 that might consider using the A65 would have started their journey north or west of M6 J40 so is discouraged from using the generally poor quality A65 in favour of the A66 / A1(M).

[Osthagen]

AFAIK, the A65 doesn’t start signing Leeds until you’re about 35 to 40 miles away (correct me if I’m wrong). I’d personally sign it right from the M6 as the Superprimary Destination at the end of the road.

Presumably the thinking is that most potential traffic heading for Leeds via M6 J36 that might consider using the A65 would have started their journey north or west of M6 J40 so is discouraged from using the generally poor quality A65 in favour of the A66 / A1(M).

The A66 doesn't sign Leeds either. It instead favours Wetherby (as with the A1 south of Scotch Corner) and to be honest, I never understood why Wetherby got so much prominence over Leeds in the first place. It really isn't a big town and I don't imagine much traffic is heading there. Leeds should be signed on the A1 south from Newcastle (and the A66 from Penrith) as the next Superprimary Destination.

[Stevie D]

Speaking of the A19, it seems a bit strange that they don’t mention York on the fork signs for the A19/M62 junction.

I would think that this is a legacy of the road network before the Selby Bypass was built. Selby was a notorious bottleneck, particularly at the Barlby swing bridge, which was also tolled. Now that Selby (and the swing bridge) have been bypassed, it would make sense to add York to the fork signs at Junction 34 as it is a much quicker route to York than continuing on the M62 as far as Junction 37, then using the A63 through Howden to meet the A19 only a couple of miles north of Barlby. It is probably necessary to keep York on the eastbound exit signs at Junction 37 for traffic travelling via the A1 and M18, although the majority of York bound traffic from the south would use the A1/A1(M) or M1, then the A64.

Who would be coming off the M62 at J34 and heading for York?

Anyone travelling eastbound would come off at J32a and use A1(M) and A64.
Anyone travelling westbound (from Hull) would come off at J37 and use A63.
Anyone travelling from Goole would go via Drax to Selby.
Anyone travelling from the M18 would turn right onto M62 to J37 and then via A63.

There is no reason for anyone travelling towards York to be on the M62 at J34, so there is no need to signpost it.

[owen b]

Anyone travelling westbound (from Hull) would come off at J37 and use A63.
Anyone travelling from Goole would go via Drax to Selby.
Anyone travelling from the M18 would turn right onto M62 to J37 and then via A63.

It surprises me that a bypass of Howden has never been built from M62 J37 to the A63.

[Stevie D]

It surprises me that a bypass of Howden has never been built from M62 J37 to the A63.

Me too. I guess the benefits are not so great - it cuts off a bit of a corner and a bit of substandard road, but the existing route doesn't pass through any built-up areas and doesn't generally suffer from congestion, so you would only be saving a minute or two. At least now the A63 is officially routed round the pseudo-by-pass rather than right through the town centre.

[Osthagen]

Bradford is rather poorly signed on the M62 eastbound. Instead, it is overshadowed by smaller destinations like Huddersfield and Halifax. If I were doing the signs, I wouldn’t bother with Huddersfield and Halifax until you got closer, and just sign Leeds and Bradford as forward destinations.

Edit. Eastbound not westbound.

[wrinkly]

It surprises me that a bypass of Howden has never been built from M62 J37 to the A63.

It was in the trunk road programme once in the 1980s or 90s.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Bradford is rather poorly signed on the M62 westbound. Instead, it is overshadowed by smaller destinations like Huddersfield and Halifax. If I were doing the signs, I wouldn’t bother with Huddersfield and Halifax until you got closer, and just sign Leeds and Bradford as forward destinations.

I think that you may be referring to the M62 eastbound (from Manchester towards Leeds). Until recently, Leeds, Huddersfield and Rochdale were the forward destinations at Junctions 18 and 19, Leeds, Huddersfield and Halifax were the forward destinations at Junctions 20, 21 and 22, Leeds and Halifax the forward destinations at Junction 23, and Leeds and Brighouse the forward destinations at Junction 24, the main exit for Huddersfield and Halifax. Bradford appears on a route confirmation sign after Junction 22, but does not appear as a forward destination on the M62 until the Brighouse exit at Junction 25, when you are little more than ten miles from the city centre. I would sign Bradford as a forward destination instead of Brighouse at Junction 24, particularly as Brighouse is not a primary destination.

[Osthagen]

Bradford is rather poorly signed on the M62 westbound. Instead, it is overshadowed by smaller destinations like Huddersfield and Halifax. If I were doing the signs, I wouldn’t bother with Huddersfield and Halifax until you got closer, and just sign Leeds and Bradford as forward destinations.

I think that you may be referring to the M62 eastbound (from Manchester towards Leeds). Until recently, Leeds, Huddersfield and Rochdale were the forward destinations at Junctions 18 and 19, Leeds, Huddersfield and Halifax were the forward destinations at Junctions 20, 21 and 22, Leeds and Halifax the forward destinations at Junction 23, and Leeds and Brighouse the forward destinations at Junction 24, the main exit for Huddersfield and Halifax. Bradford appears on a route confirmation sign after Junction 22, but does not appear as a forward destination on the M62 until the Brighouse exit at Junction 25, when you are little more than ten miles from the city centre. I would sign Bradford as a forward destination instead of Brighouse at Junction 24, particularly as Brighouse is not a primary destination.

Yes. I meant eastbound. Don’t know why I said westbound. I’ll have to change that.

I think I’d agree with you about scrapping Brighouse as a forward destination at J24. I can’t imagine that a significant proportion of traffic is heading to the place.

[Stevie D]

I think I’d agree with you about scrapping Brighouse as a forward destination at J24. I can’t imagine that a significant proportion of traffic is heading to the place.

It is not in common to have the main exit destination for the next junction signed as a forward destination at the preceding junction. The M25 does this a lot, leading to non-primary towns like Woking making it onto the forward signs. I guess the logic is that it can help drivers who know they are near their turning, but may just have a moment of doubt as to whether it is J25 or J26, and they aren't 100% sure which towns will be signposted - where it doesn't overload the signs with too much information or lead to more important places being missed off, it seems like a sensible approach to me.

[wrinkly]

I think I’d agree with you about scrapping Brighouse as a forward destination at J24. I can’t imagine that a significant proportion of traffic is heading to the place.

It is not in common to have the main exit destination for the next junction signed as a forward destination at the preceding junction. The M25 does this a lot, leading to non-primary towns like Woking making it onto the forward signs. I guess the logic is that it can help drivers who know they are near their turning, but may just have a moment of doubt as to whether it is J25 or J26, and they aren't 100% sure which towns will be signposted - where it doesn't overload the signs with too much information or lead to more important places being missed off, it seems like a sensible approach to me.

I assume that by "not in common" you mean "not uncommon".

I think it happens mainly when there is a route from the current junction to the named place, which drivers might be tempted to use, and which the authorities specifically want to discourage drivers from using.

[lefthandedspanner]

I think I’d agree with you about scrapping Brighouse as a forward destination at J24. I can’t imagine that a significant proportion of traffic is heading to the place.

It is not in common to have the main exit destination for the next junction signed as a forward destination at the preceding junction. The M25 does this a lot, leading to non-primary towns like Woking making it onto the forward signs. I guess the logic is that it can help drivers who know they are near their turning, but may just have a moment of doubt as to whether it is J25 or J26, and they aren't 100% sure which towns will be signposted - where it doesn't overload the signs with too much information or lead to more important places being missed off, it seems like a sensible approach to me.

I assume that by "not in common" you mean "not uncommon".

I think it happens mainly when there is a route from the current junction to the named place, which drivers might be tempted to use, and which the authorities specifically want to discourage drivers from using.

This is certainly the case at junction 24; conversely, the route from Brighouse town centre to junction 24 via A643 is not signposted either.

[multiraider2]

I think I’d agree with you about scrapping Brighouse as a forward destination at J24. I can’t imagine that a significant proportion of traffic is heading to the place.

It is not in common to have the main exit destination for the next junction signed as a forward destination at the preceding junction. The M25 does this a lot, leading to non-primary towns like Woking making it onto the forward signs. I guess the logic is that it can help drivers who know they are near their turning, but may just have a moment of doubt as to whether it is J25 or J26, and they aren't 100% sure which towns will be signposted - where it doesn't overload the signs with too much information or lead to more important places being missed off, it seems like a sensible approach to me.

I assume that by "not in common" you mean "not uncommon".

I think it happens mainly when there is a route from the current junction to the named place, which drivers might be tempted to use, and which the authorities specifically want to discourage drivers from using.

This is another M25 example, for my birth town.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

I think I’d agree with you about scrapping Brighouse as a forward destination at J24. I can’t imagine that a significant proportion of traffic is heading to the place.

Brighouse used to be a primary destination and the Wiki indicates that it lost its primary status only as recently as 2009. I cannot understand why it should have been a primary destination, especially as it is less than ten miles from each of Halifax, Bradford, Dewsbury and Huddersfield, all of which are primary destinations.

[Osthagen]

This is another M25 example, for my birth town.

It’s not unusual for non-Primary Destinations to be featured on RCSs on primary roads and motorways. Non-Primary Destinations are often used when there is a lack of suitable PDs to sign. It is for this reason that, for example, Sanquhar and Cumnock are signed on the A76, or that Lockerbie, Ecclefechan and Moffatt are signed on the A74(M). Though in the case of this sign, there are probably more suitable PDs that could be used.

[nowster]

Brighouse used to be a primary destination and the Wiki indicates that it lost its primary status only as recently as 2009. I cannot understand why it should have been a primary destination, especially as it is less than ten miles from each of Halifax, Bradford, Dewsbury and Huddersfield, all of which are primary destinations.

Could it have been a place where many routes met, like Brownhills?

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Brighouse used to be a primary destination and the Wiki indicates that it lost its primary status only as recently as 2009. I cannot understand why it should have been a primary destination, especially as it is less than ten miles from each of Halifax, Bradford, Dewsbury and Huddersfield, all of which are primary destinations.

Could it have been a place where many routes met, like Brownhills?

Brighouse is the meeting point of the A641, A643 and A644, and the A6025 also terminates there. None of these roads is really of great significance now, but the A641 and A643 would have been more important in the pre-M62 era. The M62 and the M606 have largely superseded the A641 as the route for Huddersfield to Bradford traffic, while the M62 renders the A643 redundant as a route for strategic traffic heading towards Leeds. In the era before the M62 was built, traffic from Manchester to Bradford and Leeds would either have had to travel through Halifax or Huddersfield town centres, or follow the "middle" route of the A672, A640 and A643 in order to "bypass" Halifax and Huddersfield, with Bradford and Leeds traffic then diverging at Brighouse. The 1967 OS Ten Mile map show that the A58, A62, A640 and A672 were all primary routes, and the A643 was primary between Outlane (M62 Junction 23) and Brighouse. And for many years after the M62 opened, the A58, A62, A640 and A672 remained primary routes across the Pennines.

While Brownhills is close to the meeting point of the A5 and the A452, that town has lost much of its strategic importance to the road network since the completion of the M6 in the early 1970's (the A452 was a "bypass" for northeastern Birmingham and Walsall), and even more so with the building of the M6 Toll. Although it is still a primary destination, I wonder whether it will lose that designation in future as it is so close to Lichfield and Cannock.

[Osthagen]

Another one is the almost total lack of any South Welsh destinations on RCSs on the M4 West until you actually cross over the Severn. This is not helped by the fact that most of the RCSs in question fail to even substitute with the more ambiguous regional destination of 'SOUTH WALES'.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Another one is the almost total lack of any South Welsh destinations on RCSs on the M4 West until you actually cross over the Severn. This is not helped by the fact that most of the RCSs in question fail to even substitute with the more ambiguous regional destination of 'SOUTH WALES'.

This is the RCS on the M4 west of Junction 19, note no mention of South Wales:-
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.52257 ... 6656?hl=en

This RCS would also be a contender for the Botched Roadsigns thread.

It is only after you have passed the Almondsbury interchange that you see Newport and Cardiff on a RCS for the first time:-
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.55929 ... 6656?hl=en

Chepstow is signed as a forward destination on the M4 at the Almondsbury interchange, but Newport and Cardiff are not.