M1 J10-13 smart motorway upgrading

[A9NWIL]

And that’s my point really. I’m against smart motorways - I believe they’re unsafe. However, clearly that battle has been lost. The danger now comes from unauthorised use of the hard shoulder when ‘closed’.

All HSR sections should be switched ASAP to ALR. Consistency is the key and at least then you don’t end up with people using a close hard shoulder.

This means if you see a hard shoulder, it’s not a live lane.

I’d also look at removing some of the excessive and pointless barriers (random example: tibshelf unused services slips) so people have half a chance of getting to safety.

You believe motorways to be unsafe? You are aware they are statistically the safest roads we have with the lowest number of accidents compared to other roads? Which might have a lot to do with the fact that only two classes of traffic use them!

[Bendo]

And that’s my point really. I’m against smart motorways - I believe they’re unsafe. However, clearly that battle has been lost. The danger now comes from unauthorised use of the hard shoulder when ‘closed’.

All HSR sections should be switched ASAP to ALR. Consistency is the key and at least then you don’t end up with people using a close hard shoulder.

Instead you end up with people broken down in an active lane that the "smart" systems have failed to pick up on and the risk that carries

Dashcam screen shot I've posted before but is too wide to post as an actual image - download/file.php?id=13546

I've no problem with the concept of ALR, however the technology simply doesn't exist at this point in time to identify a stopped vehicle in a timly manner and close an active lane.

There has already been one death so far where a stopped vehicle was hit by an LGV (although the courts found the driver of the LGV culpable for that one), the inquest appears to have not happened as there was an ongoing court case but that is concluded so seems strange the inquest hasn't happened yet. Suspect when the inquest does happen serious questions will be raised as to the time it takes to detect a stopped vehicle and close the active lane.

[A9NWIL]

And that’s my point really. I’m against smart motorways - I believe they’re unsafe. However, clearly that battle has been lost. The danger now comes from unauthorised use of the hard shoulder when ‘closed’.

All HSR sections should be switched ASAP to ALR. Consistency is the key and at least then you don’t end up with people using a close hard shoulder.

Instead you end up with people broken down in an active lane that the "smart" systems have failed to pick up on and the risk that carries

Dashcam screen shot I've posted before but is too wide to post as an actual image - download/file.php?id=13546

I've no problem with the concept of ALR, however the technology simply doesn't exist at this point in time to identify a stopped vehicle in a timly manner and close an active lane.

There has already been one death so far where a stopped vehicle was hit by an LGV (although the courts found the driver of the LGV culpable for that one), the inquest appears to have not happened as there was an ongoing court case but that is concluded so seems strange the inquest hasn't happened yet. Suspect when the inquest does happen serious questions will be raised as to the time it takes to detect a stopped vehicle and close the active lane.

Looks like detectors in the road would be needed, if a single vehicle is stopped on a motorway for a minuet then it should trigger the automatic closing of that lane.

[ManomayLR]

First of all about upgrading of DHSR - as shown in my diagram the gantries should show either green arrows or speed limits for open lanes, if that speed limit is an NSL sign so be it, and a red X for closed lanes - before the hard shoulder closes there should be a white arrow without flashing lights and MS4 saying "Hardshoulder closing ahead". If green arrows are used then the speed limit should be shown on the MS4 above, the problem with that being not enough MS4 space for words "Hardshoulder for emergency use only". That space can be freed up as long as a speed limit or red X is used even if it's NSL.

Second: the M1 10-13 ALR will be the best one out there for broken down vehicle detection. That's the role the existing hardshoulder cameras along the hardshoulder will have on the new ALR.

[Conekicker]

Looks like detectors in the road would be needed, if a single vehicle is stopped on a motorway for a minuet then it should trigger the automatic closing of that lane.

Except how do you reliably detect the smallest vehicle, (a motorbike that is almost certainly stopped tight up to the nearside edge), whilst not "false alarming" for a line of stationary traffic?

The only way I know to do that is CCTV with very clever software that then brings a possible incident to the attention of a human. Which given the low numbers of operators in RCCs, means you'd have to set on a lot more bodies. £££££.

You then have to look at it through the eyes of the bean counters - which is more cost effective, the current paid for system with an certain risk of fatalities or an enhanced and more expensive not paid for system that might or might not reduce the risk of fatalities because nothing can be guaranteed.

[A9NWIL]

Looks like detectors in the road would be needed, if a single vehicle is stopped on a motorway for a minuet then it should trigger the automatic closing of that lane.

Except how do you reliably detect the smallest vehicle, (a motorbike that is almost certainly stopped tight up to the nearside edge), whilst not "false alarming" for a line of stationary traffic?

The only way I know to do that is CCTV with very clever software that then brings a possible incident to the attention of a human. Which given the low numbers of operators in RCCs, means you'd have to set on a lot more bodies. £££££.

You then have to look at it through the eyes of the bean counters - which is more cost effective, the current paid for system with an certain risk of fatalities or an enhanced and more expensive not paid for system that might or might not reduce the risk of fatalities because nothing can be guaranteed.

The whole strip at the side of the carriageway should be able to detect for light vehicles. To stop false positives, ie stationary traffic jams, it should be as simple as checking for multiple stopped vehicles in multiple lanes and instead set a lower speed limit automatically.

I guess that such a system would need development and testing first though, but actual sensors would surely be better than a camera thats mounted every so often?

[ManomayLR]

This thread is about upgrading the M1 10-13 to ALR. And vehicle detection will be fine because there are cameras every 10 yards or so that were previously monitoring the hard shoulder for use.

[TimM3-A55]

And that’s my point really. I’m against smart motorways - I believe they’re unsafe. However, clearly that battle has been lost. The danger now comes from unauthorised use of the hard shoulder when ‘closed’.

All HSR sections should be switched ASAP to ALR. Consistency is the key and at least then you don’t end up with people using a close hard shoulder.

This means if you see a hard shoulder, it’s not a live lane.

I still can't say I'm completely sold on smart motorways, but if they're here to stay we should make best use of the concept by converting all sections previously upgraded to ATM, dynamic HSR, etc to ALR. The saftey through consistently argument just adds weight to the case to do so. A target of X number of years to complete all conversions should be set. Priority should be given to sections that are particularly busy or where HSR doesn't work well due to being inconsistent through junctions. The M6 between the M5 and M54 and the original section of ATM on the M42 between the M40 and M6 come to mind, that section of the M42 seems to be the test bed for most new ideas so seems the best place to trial conversion to smart motorway. It would also make sense to do sections like this while other upgrades are being done on adjacent sections.

The situation with this particular section is frustrating as it was originally going to be proper widening, although without full reconstruction, to link in with the reconstructed section to the M25 but was watered down to HSR at the last minute. A little further up the queue and it would have got proper widening, a bit further back and it would have been a smart motorway with ALR.

I’d also look at removing some of the excessive and pointless barriers (random example: tibshelf unused services slips) so people have half a chance of getting to safety.

I've often thought that when using HQDC/expressways, some of a certain age have a 1m or so hard strip with a gravel or hardcore strip just the off the side of the road. Seems to be there to allow a smaller vehicle such as a car to park off the road in an emergency without just sitting on grass. Possibly the reason the barriers are so close on a smart motorway is that a smart motorway upgrade envolvs very little land acquisition so the barrier may now be the motorway boundary.

[Bryn666]

The motorway boundary is always the wooden fence. Which, as you've seen on the M3 no doubt, is right behind the crash barrier.

[Chris5156]

I’d also look at removing some of the excessive and pointless barriers (random example: tibshelf unused services slips) so people have half a chance of getting to safety.

I've often thought that when using HQDC/expressways, some of a certain age have a 1m or so hard strip with a gravel or hardcore strip just the off the side of the road. Seems to be there to allow a smaller vehicle such as a car to park off the road in an emergency without just sitting on grass. Possibly the reason the barriers are so close on a smart motorway is that a smart motorway upgrade envolvs very little land acquisition so the barrier may now be the motorway boundary.

A gravel strip just behind the hard strip is almost always a French drain - a drainage ditch filled with gravel so the water can run along it but vehicle wheels won't drop into it.

Older roads tended to use French drains; newer ones will have a continuously paved shallow concrete gully with periodic grates leading through to a drain.

[darkcape]

A gravel strip just behind the hard strip is almost always a French drain - a drainage ditch filled with gravel so the water can run along it but vehicle wheels won't drop into it.

Older roads tended to use French drains; newer ones will have a continuously paved shallow concrete gully with periodic grates leading through to a drain.

On the M1 10-13 there is a 1m strip in the verge formed of planings which are for pedestrian maintenance access. It also occurs on some later phases of the Birmingham Box schemes. But now the new ALR spec has infrastructure at discrete locations the parallel maintenance path is not necessary.

And a side note: even new roads with concrete v-channel drainage will still have french/filter drains. The v-channel is 'surface drainage' to catch runoff from the surface course, filter drains will be alongside as 'subsurface drainage' I.e to drain the road foundation (road box) and runoff from batters and verges that the v-channel might miss.

[DB617]

If I could just point something out regarding traffic stop detection, it will become more critical to ensure the motorway is heavily monitored if cars with 'hands on autopilot' become more common. Those things can and will stop wherever they are at the time if their driver has fallen asleep or is fooling about away from the wheel. Next thing you know you have a Model S stationary in lane 4. Whoops.

[someone]

Looks like detectors in the road would be needed, if a single vehicle is stopped on a motorway for a minuet then it should trigger the automatic closing of that lane.

Except how do you reliably detect the smallest vehicle, (a motorbike that is almost certainly stopped tight up to the nearside edge), whilst not "false alarming" for a line of stationary traffic?

There is a set of traffic lights in Maidstone on the A249 which stay so that southbound traffic can make a right turn into the town centre, unless it detects northbound traffic on the A249 or leaving town centre road.

A few times I have been there in the morning when there was no other northbound traffic, but the lights never once detected my bike. So I would rather not trust my life to such technology.

[Conekicker]

If I could just point something out regarding traffic stop detection, it will become more critical to ensure the motorway is heavily monitored if cars with 'hands on autopilot' become more common. Those things can and will stop wherever they are at the time if their driver has fallen asleep or is fooling about away from the wheel. Next thing you know you have a Model S stationary in lane 4. Whoops.

Yet another reason why we are many years away from autonomous vehicles being let loose on the nations highways.

[lefthandedspanner]

Looks like detectors in the road would be needed, if a single vehicle is stopped on a motorway for a minuet then it should trigger the automatic closing of that lane.

Except how do you reliably detect the smallest vehicle, (a motorbike that is almost certainly stopped tight up to the nearside edge), whilst not "false alarming" for a line of stationary traffic?

There is a set of traffic lights in Maidstone on the A249 which stay so that southbound traffic can make a right turn into the town centre, unless it detects northbound traffic on the A249 or leaving town centre road.

A few times I have been there in the morning when there was no other northbound traffic, but the lights never once detected my bike. So I would rather not trust my life to such technology.

Similarly, I've come off M1 at junction 41 late at night a few times; the lights where the exit slips meet the roundabout are controlled by induction loops and off-peak they are red by default, unless there's traffic exiting the motorway. When my (600 cc, 200 kg) bike has been the only vehicle on the sliproad it's not been detected once.

[DB617]

If I could just point something out regarding traffic stop detection, it will become more critical to ensure the motorway is heavily monitored if cars with 'hands on autopilot' become more common. Those things can and will stop wherever they are at the time if their driver has fallen asleep or is fooling about away from the wheel. Next thing you know you have a Model S stationary in lane 4. Whoops.

Yet another reason why we are many years away from autonomous vehicles being let loose on the nations highways.

Agreed, especially with the regressive nature of lawmaking in this country, but at the same time I just realised that the alternative to an AV stopping in place when its driver falls asleep is a non automated vehicle ploughing off the motorway either to the left, or straight through the Armco across the other carriageway, or (hopefully the case on most motorways in a few years time but don't hold your breath) being smashed like a bug on the concrete barrier without causing a huge pile-up. In particular I think the case for automated HGVs is growing with each passing week having more HGV caused fatalities. I'd love to see the fatal accident trends on the motorway network for the past ~8 years to see if things are changing.

[Bryn666]

Recorded Road Casualties Great Britain will have all that data for you I think.

[Philip618]

Agree very much with the various contributors who have described this section of DHSR as confusing at best and dangerous at worst.

I would tend to support a relatively simple scheme to re-paint the solid hard shoulder line with a dotted line for permanent ALR combined with re-surfacing that I think needs doing anyway. Newer/fewer gantries would be nice, but not essential and a simple scheme would be cheaper, increasing the chances it actually gets done. But any option suggested above would be better than the current status.

How are the accident statistics on this section vs., say, J6a-10 or other active ALR schemes on the M1?

[ManomayLR]

Agree very much with the various contributors who have described this section of DHSR as confusing at best and dangerous at worst.

I would tend to support a relatively simple scheme to re-paint the solid hard shoulder line with a dotted line for permanent ALR combined with re-surfacing that I think needs doing anyway. Newer/fewer gantries would be nice, but not essential and a simple scheme would be cheaper, increasing the chances it actually gets done. But any option suggested above would be better than the current status.

How are the accident statistics on this section vs., say, J6a-10 or other active ALR schemes on the M1?

Welcome to SABRE. A concrete barrier will need fitting too.

[Stevie D]

There is a set of traffic lights in Maidstone on the A249 which stay so that southbound traffic can make a right turn into the town centre, unless it detects northbound traffic on the A249 or leaving town centre road.

A few times I have been there in the morning when there was no other northbound traffic, but the lights never once detected my bike. So I would rather not trust my life to such technology.

A well-designed system will periodically cycle through, just in case there is waiting traffic that hasn't been detected. You might be left waiting for a few minutes, but not forever. Of course, that does rely on the system having been designed with that in mind.