Corran Ferry Replacement

[SouthWest Philip]

As for Corran larger more modern ferries are probably the way to go, any bridge would very expensive and look very out of place.

As it's a Highland Council service rather than a Transport Scotland one and the Maid very rarely runs the service alongside the Corran I'd be surprised if anything happens without TS taking over responsibility for the service, the council have made some noises indicating that they're prefer not to have it as one of their problems.

I suspect Transport Scotland would be best to take responsibility for a bridge at Corran. The problem however is the A861 not being a trunk route, while the A82 is a trunk route. There could even be some form of joint agreement between TS and Highland Council given the different road status on the two sides of the loch.

I suppose one way that trunk status for that part of the A861 could be justified is if a Corran fixed crossing was built in conjunction with a tunnel from Lochaline to Fishnish. A884 then gets extended east to the A82 at Corran Crossing and west to Tobermory becoming trunk (and widened to S2) in the process. (If Skye can have it's own trunk road, why not Mull?)

[owen b]

I suppose one way that trunk status for that part of the A861 could be justified is if a Corran fixed crossing was built in conjunction with a tunnel from Lochaline to Fishnish. A884 then gets extended east to the A82 at Corran Crossing and west to Tobermory becoming trunk (and widened to S2) in the process. (If Skye can have it's own trunk road, why not Mull?)

Skye's population was 10,008 at the 2011 census, plus Uig on Skye is the ferry port for Harris and North Uist. Mull's population at the 2011 census was 2,800. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_i ... population

[Al__S]

it's ~400m at the narrowest, so a lift bridge would need to have piers in the strong tidal stream. Also, if part of the idea of a bridge is to reduce maintenance costs using a large capital outlay, then a moving bridge rather eats in to that benefit.

[Altnabreac]

I suppose one way that trunk status for that part of the A861 could be justified is if a Corran fixed crossing was built in conjunction with a tunnel from Lochaline to Fishnish. A884 then gets extended east to the A82 at Corran Crossing and west to Tobermory becoming trunk (and widened to S2) in the process. (If Skye can have it's own trunk road, why not Mull?)

Skye's population was 10,008 at the 2011 census, plus Uig on Skye is the ferry port for Harris and North Uist. Mull's population at the 2011 census was 2,800. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_i ... population

If you wanted to make this business case work then you'd probably have to include replacing Oban as the port for Barra, Coll and Tiree with Tobermory. The reduced distances for ferries would help the business case but the increased driving distances to Glasgow wouldn't.

In reality a theoretical fixed link to Mull seems much more likely to be a bridge from Oban to Kerrera then a tunnel to Duart.

And on a list of sea crossings with potential for new fixed links in Scotland I don't think Mull or Corran would be in the top 10 priorities. I'd go with something like: 1 Luing - Seil, 2 Yell - Unst, 3 Yell - Shetland, 4 Bressay - Shetland, 5 Sound of Harris, 6 Shapinsay - Orkney, 7 Whalsay - Shetland, 8 Jura - Islay, 9 Flotta - Hoy, 10 Kerrera - Mainland.

[Berk]

And on a list of sea crossings with potential for new fixed links in Scotland I don't think Mull or Corran would be in the top 10 priorities. I'd go with something like: 1 Luing - Seil, 2 Yell - Unst, 3 Yell - Shetland, 4 Bressay - Shetland, 5 Sound of Harris, 6 Shapinsay - Orkney, 7 Whalsay - Shetland, 8 Jura - Islay, 9 Flotta - Hoy, 10 Kerrera - Mainland.

Apart from the heavy bias towards the Orkneys and Shetland (which can be justified in terms of population, at a pinch), how on earth can you justify not only the capital cost of a bridge between two small islands, but placing it as number one??!!

Surely the inhabitants of Mull have a better claim to a fixed link than those on Luing.

[Altnabreac]

And on a list of sea crossings with potential for new fixed links in Scotland I don't think Mull or Corran would be in the top 10 priorities. I'd go with something like: 1 Luing - Seil, 2 Yell - Unst, 3 Yell - Shetland, 4 Bressay - Shetland, 5 Sound of Harris, 6 Shapinsay - Orkney, 7 Whalsay - Shetland, 8 Jura - Islay, 9 Flotta - Hoy, 10 Kerrera - Mainland.

Apart from the heavy bias towards the Orkneys and Shetland (which can be justified in terms of population, at a pinch), how on earth can you justify not only the capital cost of a bridge between two small islands, but placing it as number one??!!

Surely the inhabitants of Mull have a better claim to a fixed link than those on Luing.

You've got to look at the total savings to the public purse vs the costs. Bridge projects will generally be cheaper than tunnels, especially where there is a limited navigation height required.

Then you need to look at the potential savings. Somewhere like Luing needs out of hours health cover, a primary school etc that are potential savings post fixed link. In fact the potential for these savings to be sought is one of the reasons communities can be quite ambivalent about the potential of fixed links.

Whereas Mull is going to cost a lot of money to build the link but will continue to have enough demand for primary schooling and the distances are such that it would be difficult to justify closing Tobermory High School. So its much less clear that any savings would accrue from a Mull fixed link beyond the ferry service.

Yell, Unst and Whalsay by contrast have Junior High Schools that would be a potential closure saving and older children who board in Lerwick who could travel from home (to Brae) each day instead.

The Mull economy is less dependent on Oban as well with a more local tourism and agriculture based economy. By contrast places with lots of daily commuters will tend to benefit the most from fixed links. Luing has people who commute to Oban each day and Yell has people who work at Sullom Voe on the mainland.

So its not as simple as saying what would be the busiest fixed links will generate the best business cases.

[Ruperts Trooper]

Shetland ferries offer a cost-effective way of crossing those stretches of water - I imagine the cost of a bridge would be much greater than the subsidy paid to run the ferries.

The need for school children to board in Lerwick wouldn't change with as bridge as they still need to get to school - a bridge would reduce journey time, that's all.

[Berk]

Shetland ferries offer a cost-effective way of crossing those stretches of water - I imagine the cost of a bridge would be much greater than the subsidy paid to run the ferries.

The need for school children to board in Lerwick wouldn't change with as bridge as they still need to get to school - a bridge would reduce journey time, that's all.

It would likely make a difference as to whether they can get home at night or not. You would therefore need an all-weather bridge. Whether that would add to costs is also uncertain.

I have to say, even when I visited the Western Isles a long time (17 years) ago, it was obvious that improving causeways and building bridges between islands had transformed the local economy, and local lives too, no doubt.

[Ruperts Trooper]

I have to say, even when I visited the Western Isles a long time (17 years) ago, it was obvious that improving causeways and building bridges between islands had transformed the local economy, and local lives too, no doubt.

And caused a tragedy in 2005 through the poor design of the South Ford Causeway, blocking a storm surge and flooding low-lying areas.

In more recent years, the increased subsidy of Calmac ferries to allow the use of RET fares has stimulated the Western Isles economy considerably.

[Euan]

I suppose one way that trunk status for that part of the A861 could be justified is if a Corran fixed crossing was built in conjunction with a tunnel from Lochaline to Fishnish. A884 then gets extended east to the A82 at Corran Crossing and west to Tobermory becoming trunk (and widened to S2) in the process. (If Skye can have it's own trunk road, why not Mull?)

Skye's population was 10,008 at the 2011 census, plus Uig on Skye is the ferry port for Harris and North Uist. Mull's population at the 2011 census was 2,800. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_i ... population

If you wanted to make this business case work then you'd probably have to include replacing Oban as the port for Barra, Coll and Tiree with Tobermory. The reduced distances for ferries would help the business case but the increased driving distances to Glasgow wouldn't.

In reality a theoretical fixed link to Mull seems much more likely to be a bridge from Oban to Kerrera then a tunnel to Duart.

And on a list of sea crossings with potential for new fixed links in Scotland I don't think Mull or Corran would be in the top 10 priorities. I'd go with something like: 1 Luing - Seil, 2 Yell - Unst, 3 Yell - Shetland, 4 Bressay - Shetland, 5 Sound of Harris, 6 Shapinsay - Orkney, 7 Whalsay - Shetland, 8 Jura - Islay, 9 Flotta - Hoy, 10 Kerrera - Mainland.

There would also be the issue of Tobermory as a major port for Coll, Tiree and Barra. Currently Tobermory only has a small slip to accommodate Loch-class ferries crossing over to Kilchoan, so as a minimum a major linkspan would be needed as well as additional docking space for a large vessel. Of course, introducing a fixed link to Mull would eliminate the need for the Oban-Craignure route and hence Tobermory would not theoretically need to be quite as extensive a port as Oban currently, but still far more extensive than at present.

[Berk]

I remember reading an article about the state of the Scottish ferries last year. To cut a long story short, there has been little investment in both ships, and the ports and harbours themselves.

There has also been a situation linked to that that each port has unique, bespoke requirements - berths, harbour approaches and so on - possibly due to inadequate investment. This means that typically each port can only accommodate a single type of vessel. Often a different one in each port.

If certain routes become busy, or overbooked due to weather and cancellations (including engineering works), this can mean some services are cancelled or diverted to make up for gaps elsewhere. So you might have a single boat operating one route on that day, packed to the rafters. Which in turn has knock-on results for Island accommodation and so on.

Some pressure should be brought to bear on CMAL to make improvements at as many harbours to ensure a wider range of ships can operate between ports. This could be linked with onshore road improvements such as bridges, creating a more regular, streamlined service.

[Berk]

To be honest, I feel the Oban-Craignure Route is safe, as it would be considerably longer by road to Ballachulish and Corran.

It would just make it easier for folks to travel between Mull, Ardmamurchan and Mallaig. And Fort William, of course.

[Altnabreac]

Shetland ferries offer a cost-effective way of crossing those stretches of water - I imagine the cost of a bridge would be much greater than the subsidy paid to run the ferries.

The need for school children to board in Lerwick wouldn't change with as bridge as they still need to get to school - a bridge would reduce journey time, that's all.

Whalsay, Yell and Unst would all need to be subsea tunnels. They would be expensive but would be all weather. The distance from Haroldswick to Brae would be acceptable with a journey time of around an hour each way which is comparable to places like Uig on Lewis. Although all kids who board do so in Lerwick there is a second high school at Brae that is closer to the northern isles.

[Berk]

Who else is going to sail across Bluemull and Yell Sounds, apart from the ferries?? I know there are often gale-force winds up there, but as soon as you mention ‘tunnel’, I can immediately see the clock starting from £1bn and rising upwards.

If the Regional Council never proposed a bridge (much less a tunnel), where would the support come from?? And funding??

Yes, it’s logical, and would be useful. But cost-effective??

The best you can hope for is to build bridges between the three islands. With enhanced wind protection. You would probably need three - one between the Mainland and Bigga, Bigga and Yell, and the last one to Unst.

[Altnabreac]

Who else is going to sail across Bluemull and Yell Sounds, apart from the ferries?? I know there are often gale-force winds up there, but as soon as you mention ‘tunnel’, I can immediately see the clock starting from £1bn and rising upwards.

If the Regional Council never proposed a bridge (much less a tunnel), where would the support come from?? And funding??

Yes, it’s logical, and would be useful. But cost-effective??

The best you can hope for is to build bridges between the three islands. With enhanced wind protection. You would probably need three - one between the Mainland and Bigga, Bigga and Yell, and the last one to Unst.

Well given there has never been a Regional Council covering Shetland its unlikely that a Regional Council would ever have proposed any infrastructure there. It went straight from Zetland County Council to the Sui Generis Unitary Island Authorities.

Certainly for Yell, Unst and Whalsay all the discussion and research has been based on tunnels not bridges. Norwegian tunnelling firms have done some initial research but it is likely to be very expensive and would need significant investment from Scottish Parliament level.

[Ruperts Trooper]

Skye's population was 10,008 at the 2011 census, plus Uig on Skye is the ferry port for Harris and North Uist. Mull's population at the 2011 census was 2,800. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_i ... population

If you wanted to make this business case work then you'd probably have to include replacing Oban as the port for Barra, Coll and Tiree with Tobermory. The reduced distances for ferries would help the business case but the increased driving distances to Glasgow wouldn't.

In reality a theoretical fixed link to Mull seems much more likely to be a bridge from Oban to Kerrera then a tunnel to Duart.

And on a list of sea crossings with potential for new fixed links in Scotland I don't think Mull or Corran would be in the top 10 priorities. I'd go with something like: 1 Luing - Seil, 2 Yell - Unst, 3 Yell - Shetland, 4 Bressay - Shetland, 5 Sound of Harris, 6 Shapinsay - Orkney, 7 Whalsay - Shetland, 8 Jura - Islay, 9 Flotta - Hoy, 10 Kerrera - Mainland.

There would also be the issue of Tobermory as a major port for Coll, Tiree and Barra. Currently Tobermory only has a small slip to accommodate Loch-class ferries crossing over to Kilchoan, so as a minimum a major linkspan would be needed as well as additional docking space for a large vessel. Of course, introducing a fixed link to Mull would eliminate the need for the Oban-Craignure route and hence Tobermory would not theoretically need to be quite as extensive a port as Oban currently, but still far more extensive than at present.

In the event of a fixed link to Mull, the ferries for Coll, Tiree and Barra could use the redundant terminal at Craignure - saving traffic from the mainland a few miles

[Herned]

Who else is going to sail across Bluemull and Yell Sounds, apart from the ferries?? I know there are often gale-force winds up there, but as soon as you mention ‘tunnel’, I can immediately see the clock starting from £1bn and rising upwards.

This https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eysturoyartunnilin tunnel in the Faroe Islands is 11km long, and is costing around £110m. The Norwegians build tunnels to islands on the scale of the suggested ones for costs in the tens of millions. Obviously geology matters, but on the face of it such links should be possible for similar costs to Norway, and if not, why not?

[KeithW]

Who else is going to sail across Bluemull and Yell Sounds, apart from the ferries?? I know there are often gale-force winds up there, but as soon as you mention ‘tunnel’, I can immediately see the clock starting from £1bn and rising upwards.

This https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eysturoyartunnilin tunnel in the Faroe Islands is 11km long, and is costing around £110m. The Norwegians build tunnels to islands on the scale of the suggested ones for costs in the tens of millions. Obviously geology matters, but on the face of it such links should be possible for similar costs to Norway, and if not, why not?

Norway is resource rich having lots of petroleum and hydro electric power - statistics tell the story
Country GDP per Capita
Norway $73,450
Scotland $43,740

The bottom line is Norway has more money to spend.

[orudge]

It's not about GDP though, but the actual cost of building the tunnels. The Hindhead tunnel apparently cost around £155m per km - admittedly as a dual carriageway, so let's say it would have 'only' been around £100m per km for a single carriageway. That's still 10 times more than the Faroe tunnel. The proposals for relatively short tunnels on the A9 at Dunkeld were being quoted as over £1 billion. Why can these other countries build tunnels so cheaply compared to the UK? Less in the way of red tape, etc?

[Herned]

Norway is resource rich having lots of petroleum and hydro electric power - statistics tell the story
Country GDP per Capita
Norway $73,450
Scotland $43,740

The bottom line is Norway has more money to spend.

Is it really? Any need to be so patronising?

More money to spend has no bearing on the cost of a project, and if anything would make it more expensive. If Norway can build several km long undersea tunnels for £50m, then it should be possible in Scotland as well. Which was my point