Are these signals legal?

[AndyB]

The ASL is only enforceable if you are observed crossing the first stop line after the lights have changed to red. In practice, this means the police need to be where they can see that your traffic light must be red (eg behind you, or where they can conclude that your lights are red, for example a two phase+ped crossroads or if the green man is up on the crossing you're approaching).

Basically, unless they're seen, drivers get the benefit of the doubt that they crossed the first stop line on amber.

[andrewwoods]

The ASL is only enforceable if you are observed crossing the first stop line after the lights have changed to red. In practice, this means the police need to be where they can see that your traffic light must be red (eg behind you, or where they can conclude that your lights are red, for example a two phase+ped crossroads or if the green man is up on the crossing you're approaching).

Basically, unless they're seen, drivers get the benefit of the doubt that they crossed the first stop line on amber.

And we've all seen drivers go straight past the first stop line on red and stop at the ASL.
Hence my suggestion for making them all yellow boxes.

[AndyB]

There would be side effects of such a decision - it would probably need the intergreen to be extended to allow traffic to clear from beyond the first stop line, whereas they can currently stop at the second line and still be clear of the pedestrian crossing and the swept path of turning traffic.

Unfortunately, a yellow box probably wouldn't be much more effective, simply because enforcement by camera only applies at particular sites, and it therefore relies just as much on police being present to observe the offence.

I see people ignoring ASLs all the time. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution other than foot police patrols happening to be standing around junctions when it happens.

[traffic-light-man]

The entire junction is stupid, to be honest - see also the right turn lane stop line being pulled right back because of swept vehicle movements causing problems.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that one. I particularly like dodgy double right (though lane one is marked ahead) when heading south. It always feels like a bit of a squeeze unless you make a definitive right turn followed by a left turn.

Was that junction meant to be temporary, or has it just evolved in to a mess? It seems as though it's patiently awaiting a northern extension to Beaumont Road.

[Bryn666]

The entire junction is stupid, to be honest - see also the right turn lane stop line being pulled right back because of swept vehicle movements causing problems.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that one. I particularly like dodgy double right (though lane one is marked ahead) when heading south. It always feels like a bit of a squeeze unless you make a definitive right turn followed by a left turn.

Was that junction meant to be temporary, or has it just evolved in to a mess? It seems as though it's patiently awaiting a northern extension to Beaumont Road.

I think it grew into the mess - as far as I know Beaumont Road has never been intended to be extended, although it would make sense to tie into Moss Bank Way and skip a heavily built up section that bizarrely remains 40 when the D1 bits further along past no houses at all is 30.

[Skipsy]

This is the only case I know where people turning left can be blocked because of cars waiting for the right turn light in the same lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.50928 ... 384!8i8192

On Holgate Road in York, there is a single-lane approach to the traffic lights, which include a left-turn filter. The vast majority of the traffic there does turn left, and the filter isn't on for long before it goes to all-green, so it is rare for traffic turning left to be held up for long, but it's still pretty unusual.

Yeah I just though my example was a bit unusual but yours is actually useful and I've seen the same type of thing here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.38921 ... 384!8i8192
Although I am now confused what these signals are for???: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.95420 ... 384!8i8192

[Skipsy]

Drivers who stop at the front of the right hand lane at these latter junctions with no indicator, have others stop behind them in both lanes, and only when the signal clears move forward a bit and THEN put on their right indicator, should be put down at birth !

lol true

[Skipsy]

The permanent left turn green arrow here is useless if someone is travelling straight ahead.

https://goo.gl/maps/RpehMiXaQjnb6Rf49

It never switches off even when the green shows.

https://goo.gl/maps/VV6rxHsJLfpnAGeHA

The entire junction is stupid, to be honest - see also the right turn lane stop line being pulled right back because of swept vehicle movements causing problems.

Plenty of stupid examples like this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.41103 ... 384!8i8192

Left turn actually not possible for about a second when the lights turn red and the left turn filter comes on. Essentially a worse case than your example: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.39950 ... 312!8i6656

[jervi]

Although I am now confused what these signals are for???: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.95420 ... 384!8i8192

That does look very weird. I'd presume they serve two purposes.
1. Allows easier right turns from Blossom Street into Holgate Road for HVGs
2. Acts as a very large cycle reservoir (as there isn't enough room for a cycle lane on the approach to the traffic lights).

Doesn't seem to be part of any somewhat long distance or important cycle route, so not sure why so much effort went into this.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/5 ... 1&layers=C

[Skipsy]

Although I am now confused what these signals are for???: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.95420 ... 384!8i8192

That does look very weird. I'd presume they serve two purposes.
1. Allows easier right turns from Blossom Street into Holgate Road for HVGs
2. Acts as a very large cycle reservoir (as there isn't enough room for a cycle lane on the approach to the traffic lights).

Doesn't seem to be part of any somewhat long distance or important cycle route, so not sure why so much effort went into this.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/5 ... 1&layers=C

Just realised, if you use the feature on GSV to go back in time, you see: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.95418 ... 312!8i6656
With a stop line and regular traffic lights.
Then you have: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.95420 ... 312!8i6656
Cycle filter added to the lights
And finally: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.95420 ... 384!8i8192
The stop line is so faded and that is why I was so confused. They badly need to repaint it.

[Stevie D]

Although I am now confused what these signals are for???: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.95420 ... 384!8i8192

The reason for the stop line there being pulled back so far from the junction is because it's a narrow road on the approach to the junction, and so if you've got a truck waiting at the lights and another truck tries to turn into the road then it's very tight – no to mention that there is then no space for cyclists to filter past the queue. Pulling the stop line back to the bend, where the road is wider, means that any large vehicles turning into Holgate Road can do so more easily and clear the junction quicker, and that cyclists can safely filter past the queue to reach the ASL. The lights at the bend do turn green a few seconds before the main lights at the crossroads to allow traffic to start to move up to the stop line at the junction so no green time is wasted at the crossroads itself.

[L.J.D]

How about this confusing contradicting mess. I can understand why it's like that that due to the level crossing but surely there's a better way of doing it.

[jervi]

How about this confusing contradicting mess. I can understand why it's like that that due to the level crossing but surely there's a better way of doing it.

At a glance it seems the best way to sign it.
Although on the left turn signals I'd have the blue roundel below the signals rather than to the side.
On the right one there are a few options of which this one makes the most sense.
1. Full green & No Left turn (as it currently is) - allows ahead and right turn traffic (giving way to oncoming traffic)
2. Ahead & Right Aspects - would have to get a red light for oncoming traffic as a right turns would be given green. (lowers throughput of junction)
3. Ahead only - (may increase throughput of junction, however bans right turns)
Also it may not be too easy to widen the signal as the island is rather narrow.

[traffic-light-man]

This thread has prompted my memory of two similar confusing sites, both appearing to lack the required lanes to make it work.

Firstly is this example in Boston (complete with hideous box sign additions). Given the right turn is restricted, I can only assume there's a selective vehicle detector prior to the signals, which perhaps places a hurry call to get the right arrow illuminated in time for the right turning vehicle to arrive at the stop line.

That one is also a rare example of a site where a particular movement is expected to wait at the stop line due to the absence of their direction's arrow (i.e., the signals change, illuminating ahead and left arrows, but the right arrows remain dark until a later point in the cycle). I remember them being featured in KYTS (IIRC), but the only one I knew of was altered to something more 'normal' after a few weeks in operation. Their appearance in the book might explain why some drivers are reluctant to cross the stop line when there is an indicative right turn arrow present but not illuminated.

Secondly is this example from Selby. Approaching here, I assume the ahead/left filters come on when the bridge is closed to traffic. Given the road layout, it would only take one motorist waiting to cross the bridge to screw the whole thing up. How often that happens in actuality, I've no idea.

What's more concerning is the opposite approach. This seems to have ahead/right filters, with the same problem as above. In addition, if the filters for both directions come on at the same time, that will give a right turn priority indication across the path of oncoming traffic I haven't got any experience of these filters in operation so I can't be certain that's what happens, but looking at the layout, it seems like a possibility. It is also possible that only the ahead arrow illuminates for this approach when the bridge is closed and the RTIGA is only used during regular signal cycles, but that would also be restrictive to the right turners.

[Chris Bertram]

Moving slightly off-topic, that reminds me that our sign for an opening bridge - *any* opening bridge - on our road network shows a lifting bridge. Selby bridge (and Whitby harbour bridge, Cumberland bridge in Bristol and several others) is a swing bridge. Now I guess that it's not critical that the bridge is shown to the nth degree of accuracy - let's not forget that we still have steam trains as the symbol for open level crossings - but I wonder if a distinct design for this kind of bridge was considered.

[Stevie D]

How about this confusing contradicting mess. I can understand why it's like that that due to the level crossing but surely there's a better way of doing it.

Simple, you have green arrows for left, straight on and right, and that's that. There's no need for an unlawful combination of "you must turn left" and "you must not turn left" signs that both apply to the same carriageway. If the level crossing is open then you illuminate all green arrows, if the level crossing is closed then you illuminate the red ball and the green 'ahead' and 'right' arrows only.

[Rambo]

Moving slightly off-topic, that reminds me that our sign for an opening bridge - *any* opening bridge - on our road network shows a lifting bridge. Selby bridge (and Whitby harbour bridge, Cumberland bridge in Bristol and several others) is a swing bridge. Now I guess that it's not critical that the bridge is shown to the nth degree of accuracy - let's not forget that we still have steam trains as the symbol for open level crossings - but I wonder if a distinct design for this kind of bridge was considered.

I've often thought this when passing over the swing bridges over the Manchester ship canal. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3722707 ... 312!8i6656 Obviously a universal sign for crossing a moveable bridge over water but not particularly accurate in some instances.

[jervi]

However today, I was out for another cycle (approaching from the East, and I worked out what it is for) https://youtu.be/Kp4hRXqcYvs
It is a bicycle dedicated green aspect signal, operated by a push button as you enter the main carriageway. Not sure why they couldn't of just put an IR sensor in, surely that would be standard, familiar & reliable. - I know it doesn't have an IR or loop that detects cyclists as when I was on it a couple of days ago I sat through a ghost phase until a car came up behind me.

Found another push button for cyclists. Is it only Brighton that has these?
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@50.8 ... .76p,2.39z

[Britain]

However today, I was out for another cycle (approaching from the East, and I worked out what it is for) https://youtu.be/Kp4hRXqcYvs
It is a bicycle dedicated green aspect signal, operated by a push button as you enter the main carriageway. Not sure why they couldn't of just put an IR sensor in, surely that would be standard, familiar & reliable. - I know it doesn't have an IR or loop that detects cyclists as when I was on it a couple of days ago I sat through a ghost phase until a car came up behind me.

Found another push button for cyclists. Is it only Brighton that has these?
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@50.8 ... .76p,2.39z

There is this one in Warrington. Only cycles can turn right so I assume they press that button to change their light to green, though I'm not sure what the button to left of the one pictured (on the same island) is for.

[Dave908]

However today, I was out for another cycle (approaching from the East, and I worked out what it is for) https://youtu.be/Kp4hRXqcYvs
It is a bicycle dedicated green aspect signal, operated by a push button as you enter the main carriageway. Not sure why they couldn't of just put an IR sensor in, surely that would be standard, familiar & reliable. - I know it doesn't have an IR or loop that detects cyclists as when I was on it a couple of days ago I sat through a ghost phase until a car came up behind me.

Found another push button for cyclists. Is it only Brighton that has these?
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@50.8 ... .76p,2.39z

There is this one in Warrington. Only cycles can turn right so I assume they press that button to change their light to green, though I'm not sure what the button to left of the one pictured (on the same island) is for.

I remember when this junction was installed around 2007 (from memory) it was possible to turn right onto Cromwell Ave West towards IKEA. I assume there may have been issues with traffic queuing back onto the Winwick Road roundabout, or rat-running through the industrial estate so it was changed to left turn only for vehicles.

Original layout with disused pole for right turn aspect later reused for the cycle aspect.