Red X means don’t drive in that lane

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ManomayLR
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by ManomayLR »

nowster wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 21:48
EpicChef wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 19:57 But flashing red lights and no red X - what would that look like?
I don't think that's allowable with an MS4.
No but on the lane signals in the old times it was flashing red lights and a blank matrix. By the time I was old enough to pay attention they had introduced the Red X.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by ais523 »

EpicChef wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 17:08 Recently I saw a verge mounted MS4 on the M25 closing the ALR motorway. Three HUGE red Xs with flashing red lights and capital letters:

Code: Select all

STOP
ROAD CLOSED
STOP ROAD CLOSED (or the reverse, ROAD CLOSED STOP) is a fairly common message on VMSes when the motorway is closed (although, oddly, some of them continue to show time/distance information). You can use the Traffic England site to see what text is currently shown on a VMS via the Internet, which can be interesting during situations like road closures, and saves you having to visit the (likely very congested) site in person.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by ManomayLR »

ais523 wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 04:08
EpicChef wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 17:08 Recently I saw a verge mounted MS4 on the M25 closing the ALR motorway. Three HUGE red Xs with flashing red lights and capital letters:

Code: Select all

STOP
ROAD CLOSED
STOP ROAD CLOSED (or the reverse, ROAD CLOSED STOP) is a fairly common message on VMSes when the motorway is closed (although, oddly, some of them continue to show time/distance information). You can use the Traffic England site to see what text is currently shown on a VMS via the Internet, which can be interesting during situations like road closures, and saves you having to visit the (likely very congested) site in person.
The HE traffic app has the same function but unlike the website you cannot see VSL signals.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by wallmeerkat »

AndyB - lane 5 of the M2 foreshore before the M3 opened, this lane merged and closed before the Dargan turnoff?

Am I right in thinking that the gantry back then (post-1980 pre-1995?) had more or less a permanent red X above this lane when it had merged?
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by AndyB »

It certainly did - red X depicted in the middle of the blue sign, no flashing lights, and “450 yards” below the red X.

As it wasn’t a light signal, there was never any attempt to enforce it - it was treated as a warning sign, backed up by blue wicket signs mounted on the central reservation.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by ManomayLR »



URL in case the Video Player doesn’t work: https://youtu.be/u5FWOPU_psg

This video was originally introduced to explain MS1 signals both central reserve and gantry mounted. They say the gantries are used “on urban motorways” but nowadays are used much more, both smart motorway gantries and MS1 based “classic” gantries. An error in the video though is that MS1 gantries should have a blue arrow under each signal pointing down into the lane underneath.

Notice the absence of a red X on the gantries’ lane closed signing with a blank matrix and only red lights. The “leave motorway at next exit” sign is also seen rarely today, instead traffic is merged out of each lane with an X above that lane until the exit where the main carriageway gets all Xs. Also notice the NSL sign for “road clear;” now MS1 based signs and gantries on classic motorways (or MS4s on classic motorways) use the word “End,” with the NSL sign resurrected for use on smart motorways.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by Bristol »

I also note the 10mph restriction, which I don't think was ever used - nowadays even when there's an ONCOMING VEHICLE alert I think they can only go as far down as 20?
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by KeithW »

EpicChef wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 17:19

URL in case the Video Player doesn’t work: https://youtu.be/u5FWOPU_psg

This video was originally introduced to explain MS1 signals both central reserve and gantry mounted. They say the gantries are used “on urban motorways” but nowadays are used much more, both smart motorway gantries and MS1 based “classic” gantries. An error in the video though is that MS1 gantries should have a blue arrow under each signal pointing down into the lane underneath.

This video was made 35 years ago when I was a mere stripling of 31 years old. Much has changed since then not least my waistline and arthritis - life is like that.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by Johnathan404 »

There is another way Highways England could improve red X compliance.

Whenever VMS (red X or ITT-style diagrams) is used to create roadworks, it always gets you in lane long before the cones start.

This I have no issue with, but what I do have issue with is that the cones always come with their own lane closure signs.

So you have a red X flashing away, and right underneath it you have a yellow sign with the exact same information but with ‘600 yards ahead’. So the motorist sees that and thinks they’ve got another 600 yards.

For all we know there could have been an accident on the approach to the roadworks, but I have been through no lane closures where this has been the case and many where the above has been true. So the motorist is in the habit of driving under the red X.

The worst I have ever seen was some years ago, with a red X over lane two at M18 J2, followed by ‘roadworks three miles’. Personally I didn’t want to risk it, but everyone else assumed (correctly) that the lane closure wasn’t for another three miles. I understand that this was the last red X-capable gantry, but the motorist doesn’t and shouldn’t need to.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by ais523 »

Those "this lane is closing in the future but this is the last gantry" situations would be best served via advisory rather than mandatory signs. That way people can make their own judgement about when to merge.

The closest equivalent to that that we currently have for AMIs is probably the "merge into lane to the left/right" VMS indication. On an MS4, there's an advisory version of the "lane closed" sign available; it looks like the "no through road" sign but specific to a lane. That's distinct from a mandatory lane closure, which is shown as a red X. Presumably you could go even better, and combine the "advisory lane closed" sign with a distance (I think MS4s are capable of showing a lane pattern + text):

↑↑TT
2 miles ahead

That way people would know what to do even if there weren't any gantries between here and there.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

ais523 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 22:39 Those "this lane is closing in the future but this is the last gantry" situations would be best served via advisory rather than mandatory signs. That way people can make their own judgement about when to merge.

The closest equivalent to that that we currently have for AMIs is probably the "merge into lane to the left/right" VMS indication. On an MS4, there's an advisory version of the "lane closed" sign available; it looks like the "no through road" sign but specific to a lane. That's distinct from a mandatory lane closure, which is shown as a red X. Presumably you could go even better, and combine the "advisory lane closed" sign with a distance (I think MS4s are capable of showing a lane pattern + text):

↑↑TT
2 miles ahead

That way people would know what to do even if there weren't any gantries between here and there.
Surely the correct signal for "this lane is closing in the future but this is the last gantry" situations is the "bent arrow" to warn drivers the use of that lane ends up ahead and to move into another lane.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by AndyB »

Wigwags should always mean that there is an immediate reason why you really do not want to go any further, ie a taper starting immediately beyond.

And it really annoys me that it is used a gantry before the taper begins. Should be downwards sloping arrow in the appropriate direction to allow safe merging in turn.

Of course, it's different in an emergency where they are relying on red Xs until the TM bods can get there with cones and signage to physically force traffic to move over. In that case, early red Xs are grand as they're relying on the signals alone to get traffic around safely - but not when the signals are backed up by cones.

Equally, if, say, two lanes are being closed, I have no issue with lane signals and AMIs showing downards sloping arrows 800 yards ahead of the closure, because it's fairly obviously in the interests of motorists to know that their lane is coming to an end in good time.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by ais523 »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 08:03 Surely the correct signal for "this lane is closing in the future but this is the last gantry" situations is the "bent arrow" to warn drivers the use of that lane ends up ahead and to move into another lane.
I considered that but I think drivers would interpret it as more urgent than a "lanes closed ahead" with a distance.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by Big L »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 08:03
ais523 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 22:39 Those "this lane is closing in the future but this is the last gantry" situations would be best served via advisory rather than mandatory signs. That way people can make their own judgement about when to merge.

The closest equivalent to that that we currently have for AMIs is probably the "merge into lane to the left/right" VMS indication. On an MS4, there's an advisory version of the "lane closed" sign available; it looks like the "no through road" sign but specific to a lane. That's distinct from a mandatory lane closure, which is shown as a red X. Presumably you could go even better, and combine the "advisory lane closed" sign with a distance (I think MS4s are capable of showing a lane pattern + text):

↑↑TT
2 miles ahead

That way people would know what to do even if there weren't any gantries between here and there.
Surely the correct signal for "this lane is closing in the future but this is the last gantry" situations is the "bent arrow" to warn drivers the use of that lane ends up ahead and to move into another lane.
Do you mean the bent arrow that means "Motorway closed ahead, take the next exit"?
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Big L wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 18:58
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 08:03
ais523 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 22:39 Those "this lane is closing in the future but this is the last gantry" situations would be best served via advisory rather than mandatory signs. That way people can make their own judgement about when to merge.

The closest equivalent to that that we currently have for AMIs is probably the "merge into lane to the left/right" VMS indication. On an MS4, there's an advisory version of the "lane closed" sign available; it looks like the "no through road" sign but specific to a lane. That's distinct from a mandatory lane closure, which is shown as a red X. Presumably you could go even better, and combine the "advisory lane closed" sign with a distance (I think MS4s are capable of showing a lane pattern + text):

↑↑TT
2 miles ahead

That way people would know what to do even if there weren't any gantries between here and there.
Surely the correct signal for "this lane is closing in the future but this is the last gantry" situations is the "bent arrow" to warn drivers the use of that lane ends up ahead and to move into another lane.
Do you mean the bent arrow that means "Motorway closed ahead, take the next exit"?
You've got me worried now! I was envisaging a sign similar to that used when a lane ends - but I can't find one in the Highway Code so maybe I'm imagining it.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by ais523 »

There's a "move into adjacent lane" arrow for MS4s that has a mostly straight stem, then has a 45 degree bend near the top with an arrowhead on it. It's the equivalent of the diagonally-downwards arrow used on AMIs and on the older MS1-like lane control signals.

"Take the next exit" has a 90 degree bend (not a 45 degree bend), and is used on MS1/MS2/MS3, not on an MS4. (In theory it could be used on an AMI, but that'd typically only be done on non-lane-drop junctions, with a "take the next exit" sign over lane 1 with a red X on the other lanes.)
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by AndyB »

Leave motorway at next exit can also be used if there is a temporary lane drop through a junction while other lanes continue. I know that in practice they would close lane 1 altogether then have a temporary deceleration lane marked in cones, but the capacity is theoretically there.

Actually, how that could look on successive gantries:

50 50 downward arrow
30 30 X (then cones guide over a lane)
X 50 50 (works continue)
Turn left arrow 50 50 (bearing in mind that more junctions seem to be getting gantries over the deceleration lane and mainline at the diverge)
X 50 50 (after the diverge)
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by ManomayLR »

ais523 wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 23:51 There's a "move into adjacent lane" arrow for MS4s that has a mostly straight stem, then has a 45 degree bend near the top with an arrowhead on it. It's the equivalent of the diagonally-downwards arrow used on AMIs and on the older MS1-like lane control signals.

"Take the next exit" has a 90 degree bend (not a 45 degree bend), and is used on MS1/MS2/MS3, not on an MS4. (In theory it could be used on an AMI, but that'd typically only be done on non-lane-drop junctions, with a "take the next exit" sign over lane 1 with a red X on the other lanes.)
MS1s in the central reserve used it for all lanes so an MS4 could too. A diagram similar to this one
s300_smart_motorway.jpg
s300_smart_motorway.jpg (82.1 KiB) Viewed 2956 times
can have Xs or red crossbars over the main carriageway arrows.
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by darkcape »

ais523 wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 23:51
"Take the next exit" has a 90 degree bend (not a 45 degree bend), and is used on MS1/MS2/MS3, not on an MS4. (In theory it could be used on an AMI, but that'd typically only be done on non-lane-drop junctions, with a "take the next exit" sign over lane 1 with a red X on the other lanes.)
I've seen it uses over lane drop junctions in emergency situations - perhaps as it's an important message it's reinforced over all lanes? Or to stop people thinking they can pop back out on to lane 2 before the exit taper to continue?
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Re: Red X means don’t drive in that lane

Post by nowster »

And it appears that camera enforcement of "Red X" signs in smart motorways becomes legal as of today: 3 points and a £100 fine.
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