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I went to Homebase on Saturday and did notice there was less traffic, but just put it down to the torrential rain! I go over there quite often so will be interested to see the effect of this.
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Has anyone followed this (B384 vs B438) up any further?sgill77 wrote:FurryBoots wrote:Just ask them to move the "4" to the front. The B438 is not used according to the Wiki
That's far too sensible for Birmingham City Council; that would be an appropriate number and in the correct zone. What do you want, the moon on a stick?!
I'd encourage other SABRE members who are interested in the issues I raised to write their own responses to the consultation. (Selly Oak Triangle is something I feel pretty strongly about, given that I used to work very close to it – the entrance to the workplace is on Selly Oak Bypass itself – and still frequently go through the junction, and given what a mess it is at the moment.) I'd encourage submitting your own opinion rather than copying mine (copied opinions tend not to have the impact that they maybe should).The current layout of Selly Oak Triangle is a huge traffic bottleneck, and problematic in many other ways (e.g. it has pervasively incorrect signage, which is a particular problem because it encourages drivers to ignore the new bypass). As such, I'm pleased to see that a scheme has been improved to fix it.
The new plan, in general, seems like a sensible improvement. However, I have some specific concerns:
1. Currently, according to signs at Selly Oak Triangle, Harborne Lane is classified as the A4040, and signs direct traffic for Birmingham city centre along the B384 (some examples from signs currently at the junction, approaching the junction along the A38 northbound: "For City centre Attractions follow City centre (B384)", "City centre, Edgbaston (B384)"). This has the effect of discouraging traffic from using the new bypass, and in practice means that the vast majority of drivers use the old route of the A38. In order to avoid this problem with the new junction layout, could you please ensure that the signage at the new junction:
a) classifies the stretch of Harborne Lane between Selly Oak Triangle and Aston Webb Boulevard as the A38 (and signs exits in this direction as "A38 (A4040)" so that drivers looking for the A4040 clockwise know that this route is also correct for them), and does not classify the stretch of Bristol Road between Oak Tree Lane and Chapel Lane as a primary road or A road;
b) consistently uses primary (green) backgrounds, patches or panels as appropriate when referring to the A38, and non-primary (white) backgrounds, patches or panels as appropriate for the other roads in the region;
c) signs the old route of the A38 only for local destinations within Selly Oak (such as Selly Oak itself, the new retail park on the Battery Park site, and Selly Oak station and its associated Park and Ride).
2. The current pedestrian crossing timings at Selly Oak triangle are highly dangerous; many of the crossings show "red man" / "do not cross" signs for considerable lengths of time while the road in question is in fact closed to traffic from all directions. The problem with this is that as there can be a wait of several minutes before the crossing turns green, pedestrians have an incentive to ignore the pedestrian lights and cross the junction anyway. This means that when a pedestrian incorrectly remembers the (fairly complex) sequence of traffic flows at the junction, they run a serious risk of being run over; I've personally witnessed a near miss at the crossing of Harborne Lane nearest to Bristol Road. In order to enhance safety for pedestrians, I'd like you to ensure that the pedestrian crossing lights correctly reflect whether the road is in fact safe to cross at that time. Another change along these lines which would help would be to stagger pedestrian crossings so that each carriageway of a road can be crossed individually; this would allow longer "green man" periods because the lights would not need to wait for traffic in both directions to be stopped before turning green.
3. One of the most critical parts of this plan will be the traffic light timings at the A38/A4040 corner of the junction. The main flows at the junction are turning left from Bristol Road into Harborne Lane, and turning right from Harborne Lane into Bristol Road. With the roads as shown in the diagram, these flows are possible simultaneously and would likely make a sensible long-duration traffic light phase (which would also include a "straight on" from Harborne Lane onto Oak Tree Lane as it does not conflict with either of these movements). I would recommend that you program the traffic lights to give green lights to this set of movements most of the time, especially during the morning and evening peak periods. (With the movements at the junction as are drawn on the diagram, two other phases would be needed: one which allows traffic to go straight on or turn left or right from Oak Tree Lane, and one which allows traffic to go straight on on, or turn left from, Bristol Road in either direction. Most likely a phase will also need to be added for pedestrians, who would otherwise have trouble crossing the carriageways of roads that lead away from the junction.)
4. The junction as drawn gives no obvious way to get from the Bristol Road (northbound) to Oak Tree Lane; the direct right turn is disallowed, which makes sense given the topology of the junction, but there is no obvious alternative, and the current method of doing this (doing a complete clockwise loop of the triangle) is no longer possible. I assume the new way to perform this movement is to do a complete anticlockwise loop of the triangle? If so, clear signage will be needed to help people understand this, as most motorists will be unlikely to guess (it took me a while to spot the possibility while looking at the plans, and motorists will typically not have a diagram of the junction available unless shown on signs).
5. I have some concerns over the provision for busses. Out of the most popular bus routes, the junction seems to handle the current bus routes 98, 11C and 76 well, and 11A adequately (although information will need to be given to bus customers attempting to catch the 11A on Bristol Road that they will have to use the stop on Oak Tree Lane instead). However, the 61 and 63, possibly the most popular bus routes, seem to be in some amount of trouble northbound. There's no obvious position for a bus lane on Bristol Road northbound (because the 61 and 63 want to continue on Bristol Road to be able to serve Selly Oak and Selly Oak station, effectively "turning right" off the A38, and thus have no use for the typical position of a bus lane which is on the left); I'm assuming that the bus lanes near the junction will just be removed on the assumption that the new junction layout will allow traffic to flow freely enough that they are no longer necessary. In addition, the bus stop on Bristol Road northbound near Harborne Lane is necessarily going to have to be removed as part of the scheme; this bus stop is needed by 61 and 63 customers to be able to interchange with the 11 (walking from the other side of Elliott Road is not really acceptable, especially as it requires crossing two or three roads, one of which is extremely busy). It may be worth giving some thought to a replacement bus stop for the 61 and 63, and in particular working out where it could be sited (the best location with the proposed layout appears to be on the inside of the triangle itself, but this is far from ideal).
6. Although I am glad to see that the grossly incorrect number B38 for the old course of the A38 was changed, B384 is also an incorrect number, as (because like most roads in Birmingham, the road falls geographically entirely between the A4 and the A5) its first digit should be 4. The most obvious correct number for the stretch of road would be B438 (which is currently unused). Because most signs that will need to show the number will be at Selly Oak Triangle itself, the junction upgrade seems like the best opportunity to change the number to a valid one; the need to produce new signs anyway will minimize the costs involved in doing so.
Comprehensive and well made points.ais523 wrote: Here's the response I gave to the consultation on the linked site:
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If you want to upload an image to SABRE but can't attach it to a forum post, you can use the wiki's "Upload file" feature. That's normally a better way to preserve the images for the future than third-party hosts, which have a tendency to go out of business or retroactively add restrictions.
When they did the Northfield bypass, for city-bound traffic they successfully made it seem that although you were effectively turning left, this left bend was the natural way to go - thereby stopping people ignoring the bypass and still going through Northfield.S Parkinson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 23:14Forth pic shows city bound traffic now directed left at the Triangle rather than straight on
It looks like the "B3800" is the section past the retail park, which was A4040 before. But yes, I wonder if they will also use this number for the old road through Selly Oak (currently B384).S Parkinson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 23:14First pic seems to indicate the notorious B384 may be being renumbered to B3800!
B438, which is an unused number, was always the obvious choice for the old route. B4380 is already taken (it includes the old Shrewsbury by-pass in its route), and B4038 is in use in the Rugby/Daventry area.JamesA44 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:41When they did the Northfield bypass, for city-bound traffic they successfully made it seem that although you were effectively turning left, this left bend was the natural way to go - thereby stopping people ignoring the bypass and still going through Northfield.S Parkinson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 23:14Forth pic shows city bound traffic now directed left at the Triangle rather than straight on
I haven't driven eastbound on the A38 through Selly Oak since these works have been done, so I wonder if it's the same here? i.e. that the left turn feels "natural", or whether it feels so forced that a lot of people would carry straight on anyway if they were heading into the City Centre? I always thought that the relatively new buildings on the left would prevent a gradual curve.
It looks like the "B3800" is the section past the retail park, which was A4040 before. But yes, I wonder if they will also use this number for the old road through Selly Oak (currently B384).S Parkinson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 23:14First pic seems to indicate the notorious B384 may be being renumbered to B3800!
It's still wildly out of zone though![]()
Difference from Northfield is the 'old' straight on city-bound is still clearly straight on, as per my last photo. You can also see that the carriageway is marked with left arrows to continue on the A38. The scheme plan also clearly shows the layout.JamesA44 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:41 I haven't driven eastbound on the A38 through Selly Oak since these works have been done, so I wonder if it's the same here? i.e. that the left turn feels "natural", or whether it feels so forced that a lot of people would carry straight on anyway if they were heading into the City Centre?
That did cross my mind but I ultimately dismissed the thought based on a logic that the Triangle is effectively one junction (ie the left fork at that point is just a precursor to the left turn proper into Selly Oak a short distance ahead). I might be wrong. Not all of the new signage is yet in place.