Sheffield annexed surrounding territory many times.the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 20:14 But you have a good example. Many fans of historic counties seem to think those that existed in 1974 were unchanged since their Saxon creation. But parts of Derbyshire were moved into Sheffield in 1908 ( ?) and further parts in 1967. Also I've never heard anyone in any of those parts claim they are in any sense still in Derbyshire. But why not when I have heard claims that Southport is still in Lancashire, Croydon in Surrey, Barking in Essex, Bromley in Kent, Wolverhampton in Staffordshire, Cheadle in Cheshire etc.
Moving a borough / district boundary
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
- Vierwielen
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
IMO, the chief complainers are potential councilors who like getting their names into the papers. I remember many years ago walking along the prom in Bournemouth and as soon as it got to the boundary of Poole the prom ended and a few metres on, it restarted, this time in Poole. Since then someone appears to have banged the heads of the two councils together to get them to join the two up. It seems that they were still playing political silly b******s so the two councils (plus Christchurch) were merged into a single council (probably with fewer councilors than the three councils combined) because the three towns are effectively a single settlement even if, centuries ago, Poole was in Dorset and the other two in Hampshire.the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 20:14You won't hear many people in Dore speaking like that. It's far too posh!Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 18:31 Try telling a resident of Dore that they're in Derbyshire and it'll be "Gi'o'er". It's not meaningful to anyone other than a serious student of the history of local administration, and they're pretty thin on the ground.
But you have a good example. Many fans of historic counties seem to think those that existed in 1974 were unchanged since their Saxon creation. But parts of Derbyshire were moved into Sheffield in 1908 ( ?) and further parts in 1967. Also I've never heard anyone in any of those parts claim they are in any sense still in Derbyshire. But why not when I have heard claims that Southport is still in Lancashire, Croydon in Surrey, Barking in Essex, Bromley in Kent, Wolverhampton in Staffordshire, Cheadle in Cheshire etc.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
And that's just the successful attempts.
In Barlborough there's this plaque commemorating successful opposition to being moved from Derbyshire to Sheffield.
I can't find it online but I've seen a picture of similar successful opposition in Dronfield with signs saying things like "We stopped Hitler in 1940. We'll stop Sheffield's land grab too."
Of course they should listen to Steven and realise that if moved they'd still be in Derbyshire.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Well, they are! Just not administratively...the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 13:54 Of course they should listen to Steven and realise that if moved they'd still be in Derbyshire.
After all, repeating a falsehood enough times doesn't turn it into truth!
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Which brings us back to the question of what are counties *for*. Once upon a time they were the lands over which a nobleman, usually a Duke, with allegiance to the King of the day (it always was a king back then) held sway. But the powers of the aristocracy waned, and so the county boundaries - the ones in place in 1848 and tidied up a bit by the detached parts act - became just lines on a map, until it was thought a good idea to use counties as the basis for local administration, with elected councils and the rest. And so we had Administrative Counties, which have been altered over time, and then were comprehensively reshaped in 1974, with further adjustments after that.Steven wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 14:24Well, they are! Just not administratively...the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 13:54 Of course they should listen to Steven and realise that if moved they'd still be in Derbyshire.
After all, repeating a falsehood enough times doesn't turn it into truth!
Note, however, that it was the 1974* reforms that caused the most controversy. New counties like Cleveland, Avon, Merseyside and so on were always going to struggle to command the affection of their populations - but nobody, to my recollection, said "we must reinstate the 1848 boundaries". It was the 1974 version that they wanted to retain/return to. 1848? Who cared. Historians, maybe, but few others. They're just lines on a map.
* 1975 in Scotland.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
My dad (who worked at Northumbria and was on one of the committees working on the transition) certainly recalls suggestions for the Rutherford* University of Newcastle upon Tyne; they originally started as University of Northumbria at Newcastle but this lead to the ridiculous University of Northumbria at Newcastle (Carlisle Campus) and the name was rationalised.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 07:48UCE is now Birmingham City University and has been for several years. I quite liked the former name, but it's their choice, and I expect they researched before changing.trickstat wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 07:31Yes, like Manchester Metropolitan, Liverpool John Moores, Nottingham Trent and Oxford Brookes. Also, wild cards using alternative geographical names like the Universities of Central England and Northumbria.the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 19:47
Stockport is entirely in the ceremonial county of Greater Manchester.
Perhaps. It also makes Coventry and Brighton the exceptions to the usual situation that if Anytown has two universities then Anytown University is the "old" university and Anytown Something Else University was once Anytown Polytechnic.
There's an urban myth that Northumbria was moments away from becoming the City University of Newcastle upon Tyne, before someone realised what the abbreviation would be, but that seems just a bit too convenient.
*Rutherford College of Technology was one of the colleges which came together in 1969 to form Newcastle Polytechnic
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Several million people from Yorkshire would no doubt disagree with this assertion for a start, without even vaguely considering the likes of Middlesex and Huntingdonshire, neither of which was an administrative entity in 1974.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 16:26 New counties like Cleveland, Avon, Merseyside and so on were always going to struggle to command the affection of their populations - but nobody, to my recollection, said "we must reinstate the 1848 boundaries". It was the 1974 version that they wanted to retain/return to. 1848? Who cared. Historians, maybe, but few others. They're just lines on a map.
And of course, the argument brings in a straw man around administration based on the historic counties. That ship, quite rightly, sailed in 1888, which is another reason why the current mismash needs serious resolution, and why both the Redcliffe Maud and the Senior Alternative proposals were, and are, massively superior to what we ended up with.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Ditto, as devolution has firmed up the English/Welsh and English/Scottish
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Hmm, the Scottish/Welsh border, is that a sea border?Micro The Maniac wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 20:57Ditto, as devolution has firmed up the English/Welsh and Scottish/Welsh borders
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
You missed the Isle of Ely.Steven wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 19:14Several million people from Yorkshire would no doubt disagree with this assertion for a start, without even vaguely considering the likes of Middlesex and Huntingdonshire, neither of which was an administrative entity in 1974.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 16:26 New counties like Cleveland, Avon, Merseyside and so on were always going to struggle to command the affection of their populations - but nobody, to my recollection, said "we must reinstate the 1848 boundaries". It was the 1974 version that they wanted to retain/return to. 1848? Who cared. Historians, maybe, but few others. They're just lines on a map.
And of course, the argument brings in a straw man around administration based on the historic counties. That ship, quite rightly, sailed in 1888, which is another reason why the current mismash needs serious resolution, and why both the Redcliffe Maud and the Senior Alternative proposals were, and are, massively superior to what we ended up with.
I deliberately said Administrative Counties - you have previously pointed out that these were not the same as the historic counties, but there's no doubt that they were derived from them, as the old names were used. Where Middlesex is concerned, it's That London that's to blame with the creation of Greater London. London is different, always has been and always will be. And I can tell you as a resident of Cleveland south of the Tees in the mid to late seventies that there was a lot of nostalgia for the days of the North Riding, while a friend of mine who lives in Earby in west Craven, formerly in the West Riding but now part of Lancashire, reports that support there for Yorkshire CCC is almost universal.
Point is, the 1888 counties and their successors had a function that the ancient counties had lost. In harking back to those counties, you might as well be hankering after the restoration of the Holy Roman Empire. Which ain't gonna happen.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Yes, but basing things purely on administrative boundaries is clearly nonsense - as the Yorkshire example shows, otherwise it would all be purely about the Ridings and the various County Boroughs. But at least there's now an acceptance that the historic counties exist - slow progress!Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 22:10 Point is, the 1888 counties and their successors had a function that the ancient counties had lost. In harking back to those counties, you might as well be hankering after the restoration of the Holy Roman Empire. Which ain't gonna happen.
Philosophical question time - does West Bromwich exist? Clearly not since 1974 in this strange world where local authority boundaries are the be-all and end all...
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Only in the sense that Bielefeld exists ...Steven wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 23:56Yes, but basing things purely on administrative boundaries is clearly nonsense - as the Yorkshire example shows, otherwise it would all be purely about the Ridings and the various County Boroughs. But at least there's now an acceptance that the historic counties exist - slow progress!Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 22:10 Point is, the 1888 counties and their successors had a function that the ancient counties had lost. In harking back to those counties, you might as well be hankering after the restoration of the Holy Roman Empire. Which ain't gonna happen.
Philosophical question time - does West Bromwich exist? Clearly not since 1974 in this strange world where local authority boundaries are the be-all and end all...
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
c2R wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 00:09
For us, it isn't... we record two things against each entity (in addition to actual coordinate location), and that is the authority responsible for it, and the historical county that it sits in. The map of historical counties that we use is here:
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 12&layer=0
Therefore, for our purposes, Peterborough is in both Northamptonshire and Huntingdonshire, as well as being its own unitary.
Road/junction/crossing articles should reference changes in ownership where it is relevant; e.g. where Cambridgeshire might have built something as the highway authority that is now in Peterborough, but it is not possible for us to record all ownerships and locations that there have ever been in the form of useful attributes against articles, so we've just chosen two and stated what they are.
One interesting artefact from that set of maps can be found here where there is an apparent bulge of Durham into the North Riding of Yorkshire.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 13&layer=0
This because the border between Durham and Yorkshire was the River Tees which was straightened and deepened in the between 1791 an 1831 to allow larger ships to reach Stockton on Tees. This didnt materially affect any roads in the area but did affect the route of the Stockton and Darlington Railway enabling it to be extended to Middlesbrough (then called Port Darlington).
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Historic counties were not formally abolished so legally still exist. But then hundreds were never formally abolished but noone insists on using them (except when thinking up obscure names for some district councils (especially around Nottingham)).Steven wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 23:56 Yes, but basing things purely on administrative boundaries is clearly nonsense - as the Yorkshire example shows, otherwise it would all be purely about the Ridings and the various County Boroughs. But at least there's now an acceptance that the historic counties exist - slow progress!
But if you ask "which county are you in?" which county you get in response varies erratically. For example:
Here in South Yorkshire we'd tell you we're in South Yorkshire (and not care whether we mean the administrative county (which still exists even though the county council doesn't) or ceremonial)). Anyone claiming to be in the West Riding of Yorkshire would be told that was abolished in 1974, although they are of course correct if they mean the historic county.
As Chris correctly said in those parts in historic Derbyshire noone would believe they were, and few are even aware that those parts were ever in Derbyshire.
Similarly Liverpool residents seem happy with Merseyside (and not care whether they mean the administrative county (which still exists even though the county council doesn't) or ceremonial)) but nearby in Southport many will tell you they're in Lancashire, which is true historically not administratively or ceremonially).
Over in Blackburn they'll also claim to be in Lancashire, which is true ceremonially and historically (ie a different combination to Southport). Suggesting they're in the County of Blackburn (administratively true) will probably earn derision that Blackburn isn't a county.
While in Scunthorpe the answers will be probably be split between Lincolnshire and North Lincolnshire. Nobody will claim they're still in the hated Humberside.
London is at least consistently inconsistent. In outer London clams to be in the historic county of Kent/Middlesex/Surrey/Hertfordshire/Essex are common but in in inner London they aren't. Residents of both Bromley and Greenwich are in historical Kent, administrative Greater London and ceremonial Greater London but the former will insist they''re still and Kent and the latter won't and probably won't be aware they ever were.
The invention of ceremonial counties was supposed to form a compromise between historical and ceremonial that would most closely correspond to actual perceptions of counties but clearly failed.
If there's any doubt this confused mess is ridiculous and should be sorted (but won't be) we could discuss "Rutland County Council District Council".
Yep Although West Bromwich Urban District and West Bromwich Urban District Council don't because they were abolished in 1974.Philosophical question time - does West Bromwich exist?
They're clearly important. Could I tell Sheffield City Council I'm refusing to pay my council tax because I'm still in the West Riding of Yorkshire? (No) If another authority sent me a council tax bill would I tell them where to go? (Yes, even where there's more than one authority only one of them can collect council tax.)Clearly not since 1974 in this strange world where local authority boundaries are the be-all and end all...
The Derbyshire residents I referred to clearly thought they were much more than just an administrative nicety.
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Bit of a row blowing up here about new developments near St Neots (Huntingdonshire DC, Cambridgeshire CC) but in Bedford BC.
https://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/plan-f ... ts-8083448
https://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/plan-f ... ts-8083448
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Yorkshire is a bit of an odd one of course a it has been long split into multiple parts for administrative purposes, until 1974 they were the North Riding, East Riding and West Riding, Lincolnshire had its equivalent called Parts (Lindsey, Kesteven and Holland) while Sussex was divided into East and West Sussex.
As has been said the origins of the counties aka shires emerged in the Saxon era and were the basis for taxation, local government and defence being required to raise, organise and equip a defence force. The county would be divided into smaller groups for this purpose with each being nominally able to field a 100 men. In the Saxon controlled regions they were called hundreds and in the Danelaw a Wapentake. Before good roads and decent communications you needed to be able to raise a local force if only to repel cattle raiders and pirate raids. Barbary pirates would be still raiding coastal settlements into the 18th century mainly in search of slaves. It was the fledgling United States Navy that put them out of business.
The man in charge of these local militias would be the Shire Reeve which was later shortened to the more familiar Sheriff.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
Actually, West Bromwich was a County Borough, but the reason I used that thought experiment is that the consistent answer to that given regarding counties would be "no, it doesn't exist - it's Sandwell now". Which is clearly rubbish, it clearly exists, there just is not a like-named administrative unit.the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 13:34Yep Although West Bromwich Urban District and West Bromwich Urban District Council don't because they were abolished in 1974.
Yes, they are important. But again the answer sets off the same straw man conflating place with administrative area.They're clearly important. Could I tell Sheffield City Council I'm refusing to pay my council tax because I'm still in the West Riding of Yorkshire? (No) If another authority sent me a council tax bill would I tell them where to go? (Yes, even where there's more than one authority only one of them can collect council tax.)Clearly not since 1974 in this strange world where local authority boundaries are the be-all and end all...
Actually, in my experience they'd be just as likely to say "Yorkshire" - though it's important to note that the West Riding is not a historic county in itself, but a former administrative county. Interestingly, York was not part of any Riding historically, nor administered by any of the Riding County Councils.the cheesecake man wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 13:34 But if you ask "which county are you in?" which county you get in response varies erratically. For example:
Here in South Yorkshire we'd tell you we're in South Yorkshire (and not care whether we mean the administrative county (which still exists even though the county council doesn't) or ceremonial)). Anyone claiming to be in the West Riding of Yorkshire would be told that was abolished in 1974, although they are of course correct if they mean the historic county.
Oh yes, as you quite rightly express it here, there's just horrible county confusion everywhere - which is why the same should be done in GB as NI, with administrative areas allowed to be their actual best fit, whether that crosses county boundaries or not; with the historic counties used for the non-administrative functions such as describing where somewhere is. I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks that administration should be based on the historic counties.Similarly Liverpool residents seem happy with Merseyside (and not care whether they mean the administrative county (which still exists even though the county council doesn't) or ceremonial)) but nearby in Southport many will tell you they're in Lancashire, which is true historically not administratively or ceremonially).
Over in Blackburn they'll also claim to be in Lancashire, which is true ceremonially and historically (ie a different combination to Southport). Suggesting they're in the County of Blackburn (administratively true) will probably earn derision that Blackburn isn't a county.
While in Scunthorpe the answers will be probably be split between Lincolnshire and North Lincolnshire. Nobody will claim they're still in the hated Humberside.
London is at least consistently inconsistent. In outer London clams to be in the historic county of Kent/Middlesex/Surrey/Hertfordshire/Essex are common but in in inner London they aren't. Residents of both Bromley and Greenwich are in historical Kent, administrative Greater London and ceremonial Greater London but the former will insist they''re still and Kent and the latter won't and probably won't be aware they ever were.
The invention of ceremonial counties was supposed to form a compromise between historical and ceremonial that would most closely correspond to actual perceptions of counties but clearly failed.
If there's any doubt this confused mess is ridiculous and should be sorted (but won't be) we could discuss "Rutland County Council District Council".
And councils should actually have sensible names that aren't confusing - the present Dorset Council is a completely different entity to the three different Dorset County Councils that came before it, none of which actually administered an area that matched Dorset...
Trying to mix it all up has ended up in a complete mess, and that's before you pick apart silliness like the various different types of so-called "Unitary Authorities" and the fact that the GLA is a regional body not a county-level one...
Last edited by Steven on Fri Jul 02, 2021 14:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
This rather late for that as St Neots has been inexorably expanding for yearsB1040 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 14:03 Bit of a row blowing up here about new developments near St Neots (Huntingdonshire DC, Cambridgeshire CC) but in Bedford BC.
https://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/plan-f ... ts-8083448
Re: Moving a borough / district boundary
East Lindsey, Boston & South Holland have just announced a strategic tie up https://www.spaldingtoday.co.uk/news/ma ... e-9205512/KeithW wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 14:21Yorkshire is a bit of an odd one of course a it has been long split into multiple parts for administrative purposes, until 1974 they were the North Riding, East Riding and West Riding, Lincolnshire had its equivalent called Parts (Lindsey, Kesteven and Holland) while Sussex was divided into East and West Sussex.
At what point does all this become a pointless duplication of the County authority? Locally District & County are at war over things like refuse collection - District insists on weekly bin bag collections, County wants fortnightly wheelie bins for example. One authority in charge puts a stop to all of that.