Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 16:44
In that context, I agree - there are two aspects to this, the dispersal of F35B Lightning II with VTOL capability might be able to use parts of WW2 airfields or roads in the same way that Harriers could during the Cold War but Eurofighter Typhoons would need 500 metres of hard surface for conventional take-off and landing.
There were suggestions during the Cold War to disperse the Harrier force to urban areas as well as rural - the most interesting study that I'd heard of was to use large car showrooms which could easily have the glass fronts taken out and support one or two aircraft in each, with the roads fronting them being perfect for VSTOL operation.
I think the F35 can take off vertically, but this isn't normally used.
That said, AIUI both the F35 and the Typhoon can take off in a very short distance indeed. Certainly the F35 uses only a small portion of the 280m length of the QE carriers to get away, albeit with a bit of help from the ski-jump, so any stretch of road it uses presumably doesn't need to be very long.
Further to my above post, saw this at random on Twitter, showing how short the take-off is, or can be, on the F-35B. It lifts off almost straight away. I'm guessing - from a position of zero expertise/knowledge - that this will vary quite a bit according to weapons and fuel loads, though:
I believe a number of US Freeways were designed in the 1940's and early 50's with sections straight and long enough to be used as dispersal strips in time of war. The problem was that by the time they were built all the aircraft in service were larger an heavier than the design catered for so they were simply not constructed that way. There was no way you could operate even a B-47 from one let alone a B-52 or B-58.
There was some provision of emergency airstrips just off freeways accessed via an exit. Some RAF airfields in the UK such as RAF Middleton St George (now Teesside Airport) were built with runways long enough to act as dispersal bases for the V Bomber force. They aircraft normally operated from there were Lightning and Gloster Javelin fighters.
roadtester wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:15
Further to my above post, saw this at random on Twitter, showing how short the take-off is, or can be, on the F-35B. It lifts off almost straight away. I'm guessing - from a position of zero expertise/knowledge - that this will vary quite a bit according to weapons and fuel loads, though:
It can do so but only with a minimal fuel/weapons however if a ski jump is used it can take off with a heavier load after a short run. If its on a carrier doing 30 knots into the wind then that makes a huge difference. The WW2 Doolittle raid on Tokyo only worked because the USN carriers were steaming at flank speed into the wind.
KeithW wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 14:39
I believe a number of US Freeways were designed in the 1940's and early 50's with sections straight and long enough to be used as dispersal strips in time of war. The problem was that by the time they were built all the aircraft in service were larger an heavier than the design catered for so they were simply not constructed that way. There was no way you could operate even a B-47 from one let alone a B-52 or B-58.
There was some provision of emergency airstrips just off freeways accessed via an exit. Some RAF airfields in the UK such as RAF Middleton St George (now Teesside Airport) were built with runways long enough to act as dispersal bases for the V Bomber force. They aircraft normally operated from there were Lightning and Gloster Javelin fighters.
IIRC I read somewhere Javelins had a poor takeoff performance and needed a long runways to get airborne.
“The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie" - Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
Johnny Mo
roadtester wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:15
Further to my above post, saw this at random on Twitter, showing how short the take-off is, or can be, on the F-35B. It lifts off almost straight away. I'm guessing - from a position of zero expertise/knowledge - that this will vary quite a bit according to weapons and fuel loads, though:
roadtester wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:15
Further to my above post, saw this at random on Twitter, showing how short the take-off is, or can be, on the F-35B. It lifts off almost straight away. I'm guessing - from a position of zero expertise/knowledge - that this will vary quite a bit according to weapons and fuel loads, though:
I wonder how the road would cope with the jet exhausts being vectored onto the road surface. What is the melting point of tar?
I'm not sure, but I believe the F35B, while having STOVL capability, is far less capable of operating in austere/improvised conditions than the Harrier was.
This suggests the jets need a special surface for a hover/vertical landing, but I think they may be OK on a normal surface on a rolling take off/landing.
roadtester wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:15
Further to my above post, saw this at random on Twitter, showing how short the take-off is, or can be, on the F-35B. It lifts off almost straight away. I'm guessing - from a position of zero expertise/knowledge - that this will vary quite a bit according to weapons and fuel loads, though:
I wonder how the road would cope with the jet exhausts being vectored onto the road surface. What is the melting point of tar?
I'm not sure, but I believe the F35B, while having STOVL capability, is far less capable of operating in austere/improvised conditions than the Harrier was.
This suggests the jets need a special surface for a hover/vertical landing, but I think they may be OK on a normal surface on a rolling take off/landing.
My brother actually painted that Vampire when it was housed at North Weald (2008 on this timeline: https://vampireflight.co.uk/aircraft-crew/ ). I'm not sure if it's still there.
Following a couple of botched attempts his name was suggested by someone who knew of him (a past customer or somesuch) so he took it on. A bit of experimentation got the job done. Due to the size the two pack paint was drying before the spray-runs were completed causing lines but he found that using cellulose thinners kept the paint tacky for longer leaving an even finish & it came out very nicely. As a result he was offered more aero work but he declined as price per foot it just didn't pay as well as cars.
JohnnyMo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:13
I wonder how the road would cope with the jet exhausts being vectored onto the road surface. What is the melting point of tar?
I'm not sure, but I believe the F35B, while having STOVL capability, is far less capable of operating in austere/improvised conditions than the Harrier was.
This suggests the jets need a special surface for a hover/vertical landing, but I think they may be OK on a normal surface on a rolling take off/landing.
I think the landing spots on the carriers have special surfaces as well.
If there is a war going on, returning to the same spot of melted tarmac is unlikely to be high on the list of military priorities.
I think that the pre-1995 South African Governmetn had a similar view. Look at this road. Very generous had shoulders which, in practice, were used by pedestrians, cyclist and donkey carts. If you saw a car coming up behind you, you would pull over onto the hard shoulder to let him pass.
I have a sneaky feeling that the hard shoulder might not have been built to the same standard as the main carriageway so that should there be an uprising somewhere, the army could move in with lorries two or three abreast. In this case, the foundations might take a hammering, but uprising that needed this sort of traffic were once in a generation type of thing (or even less frequent).
Just saw this article by chance via Twitter- the RAF is to renew its Cold War practice of using roads as runways with its latest jets, the Eurofighter and the Lightning.
roadtester wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 07:38
Just saw this article by chance via Twitter- the RAF is to renew its Cold War practice of using roads as runways with its latest jets, the Eurofighter and the Lightning.
roadtester wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 07:38
Just saw this article by chance via Twitter- the RAF is to renew its Cold War practice of using roads as runways with its latest jets, the Eurofighter and the Lightning.
I'm surprised that dispersed operations weren't simply carried over for the Lightning III (F-35B) from the Harrier programme
I suspect one issue was the decade long gap in V/STOL operations resulting from the disastrously incompetent 2010 Tory defence review carried out under the UK's worst ever defence secretary Liam Fox. That must have caused the loss of huge amounts of operating knowledge and practice which is now presumably having to built up again from scratch.
During WWII, the A30 between Camberley and Hartley Wintney was often closed because an operational runway at Blackbushe Airfield crossed the road. Unlike jet aircraft however, propellor-powered aircraft did not melt the runway.
Vierwielen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 17:34
During WWII, the A30 between Camberley and Hartley Wintney was often closed because an operational runway at Blackbushe Airfield crossed the road. Unlike jet aircraft however, propellor-powered aircraft did not melt the runway.
It was a taxiway to/from a maintenance facility which crossed the A30 at Blackbushe rather than an operational runway - a similar arrangement existed at RAF Bitteswell where the B4111 (now A4303) had traffic lights at the crossing.
roadtester wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 07:38
Just saw this article by chance via Twitter- the RAF is to renew its Cold War practice of using roads as runways with its latest jets, the Eurofighter and the Lightning.
roadtester wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 20:22
And here is the news that the RAF Typhoons have for the first time taken off from and landed on normal roads. This took place on exercises in Finland.
Looks like it was on that 3km stretch of straight road on the 551 east of Tervo. I'm not sure how much runway the Typhoons need, but for comparison the Swedish Gripens only need 500m.
Tony Alice (they,them)
~~~~~
Owner of a classic rust heap/money pit, and other unremarkable older vehicles.
Usually found with a head in an old map or road atlas.
Currently trying to get all the Class III/"C" roads onto our Wiki - your local knowledge is always appreciated - let me know if you can help!
