The comment related to Manchester city centre, not in generalchaseracer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 17:54 Bilston Road, Wolverhampton. Seem to co-exist quite happily, though.
Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
- Alderpoint
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
I don't think any bits of the A82 are signal controlled anymore. Both Pulpit Rock and Crianlarich used to to have lights, but they have both been removed in the past 10-ish years.jnty wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 18:26
Was the show specific about what parts of the A82 are actually dangerous? The worst bits further south are signal controlled, I think. Further north around Glencoe are where I would consider it most dangerous - some of the overtakes during busy tourist season. There's good sightlines for a lot of it, but this seems to encourage people to hop entire queues and inevitably conflict as people further up the queue pull out without looking etc.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
I recall Panorama being quite a heavyweight programme back in the day with a heavyweight, punchy orchestral theme to introduce it. Then in the late eighties(?) they recorded & introduced a synthesised version of the theme music, a weedy, anaemic version which entirely lacked the gravitas of the original & the programme content seemed to follow this lack of punch. I never see the programme these days but believe another even more insipid version of the tune is used now. The last ones l did see seemed like the news documentary version of The One Show. Not that l watch that either.
ISTR World in Action also went downhill when they softened the theme music, which it seems can maybe be used as a fair gauge of the level of a news programmes content.
ISTR World in Action also went downhill when they softened the theme music, which it seems can maybe be used as a fair gauge of the level of a news programmes content.
Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
Does Tyndrum not technically count? That section of the A82 is a stunning road.Alderpoint wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 22:05I don't think any bits of the A82 are signal controlled anymore. Both Pulpit Rock and Crianlarich used to to have lights, but they have both been removed in the past 10-ish years.jnty wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 18:26
Was the show specific about what parts of the A82 are actually dangerous? The worst bits further south are signal controlled, I think. Further north around Glencoe are where I would consider it most dangerous - some of the overtakes during busy tourist season. There's good sightlines for a lot of it, but this seems to encourage people to hop entire queues and inevitably conflict as people further up the queue pull out without looking etc.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
That's a signalised pedestrian crossing, not signal controlled SALT.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
A reaction, perhaps, to the seemingly relentless assertion that the problem is *always* cars. I know it's easy to focus on the shiny boxes on four wheels, but there are other aspects to road safety such as the infrastructure that everyone uses, no matter how many wheels they have or how they are propelled. I never cease to be amazed at the number of separate groups there are who declare themselves to be road safety focussed; there's surely some scope for amalgamation there?
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
Maybe so. Mine didn't.Herned wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 20:57The comment related to Manchester city centre, not in generalchaseracer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 17:54 Bilston Road, Wolverhampton. Seem to co-exist quite happily, though.
Last edited by chaseracer on Wed Jan 19, 2022 09:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
Not only that (I watched the programme last night), it seemed to be that the focus for drivers was on actual speed not inappropriate use of speed.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 09:02A reaction, perhaps, to the seemingly relentless assertion that the problem is *always* cars. I know it's easy to focus on the shiny boxes on four wheels, but there are other aspects to road safety such as the infrastructure that everyone uses, no matter how many wheels they have or how they are propelled. I never cease to be amazed at the number of separate groups there are who declare themselves to be road safety focussed; there's surely some scope for amalgamation there?
I think the person who was on about speed cameras on the A82 has already been mentioned here, and though I'm not familiar with the A82 at all in person, I know where it goes and a fair amount of it is following lakes, so is probably crammed in at the bottom of a hill with the lake on the other side. Outside of a built up area means it's probably likely to be NSL or 50, but even then, it looked like some bits you wouldn't be able to get through over 30 with standing water and it generally being too narrow for the trucks to get down without needing to go on the wrong side of the road, and also the number of bends making anticipating these difficult as well. Speed cameras on that would have to be set to the actual limit (plus whatever) and probably wouldn't do anything about any of the issues, which is probably why they don't have them.
It was also interesting to see that from their research one county doesn't have any fixed or mobile speed cameras at all, yet doesn't stand out as having a bad accident record, and most of the others have a significant proportion off or not working. I guess it would have been inappropriate for them to say as viewers would just ignore them.
I didn't get the point of them showing the drivers pulling out inappropriately at roundabouts as a "speed issue", that issue is because they are pushing out onto a roundabout where they shouldn't be or pulling out into traffic, as opposed to going over what the limit is. In this bit they just showed a load of clips of crashes and near misses but they could have showed with these what the bad driving was and who caused it/what they should have done instead. It just looked like they'd inserted clips of people crashing to make it more dramatic.
And the bit at the start with the village where there are no pavements and the narrow roads, yeah so that's not safe but drivers won't be going very fast down there and pedestrians should know to walk in the direction of oncoming traffic (i.e. on the right hand side) to keep it as safe as you can. They then just added a bit more melodrama by showing a little lad who had been hit by a car and broken his leg (Ok, he was 13 so not that little, but was he messing around with his friends or something, or was he walking sensibly and the driver was going too fast, etc etc) in a hospital bed and with a cast on at home looking sad. Having a footway there wasn't going to be the answer so they would have to just accept that it's not very safe and educate people.
The main issue is that they seemed to want to touch on a lot of issues but in a half hour time slot didn't have time to do it justice. With a couple or more programmes or an hour they could have done this. It didn't really say a lot about anything.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
I was talking about the Manchester trams (and mostly thinking about just the city centre).chaseracer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 17:54Bilston Road, Wolverhampton. Seem to co-exist quite happily, though.
Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
Speaking as someone who generally (not always, but generally) does take the view that things are fine as they are it's neither because of inconvenience or vested interests but finding the measures over-the-top, excessive, insulting, patronising, stooping to the lowest common denominator etc. Building a world for children. Like I've said often enough before - in short, not one I really want to live, finding the (low if you're not an idiot, and if you are an idiot that's your problem) risks less obnoxious than the solutions.jnty wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 16:54
There are and always have been plenty of people who think things are fine "just as they are" and generally oppose further safety measures. Sometimes the people who hold these views worry, rationally or not, that they might be inconvenienced by measures like bike lanes, LTNs, wider pavements, speed limits; others happen to work for companies for whom the new measures might cost them money or lose them sales. You might not say "I want people to be less safe" but your actions might have that result - in a similar way to how you can profess to care deeply about climate change while still burning coal by the ton.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
It *is* a speed issue, in the sense that anyone using a roundabout should be aware of the possibility that entering traffic may not follow the rules and that it may be necessary to stop, slow down or take evasive action, and should enter the situation at a speed that facilitates this.ForestChav wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 09:34 I didn't get the point of them showing the drivers pulling out inappropriately at roundabouts as a "speed issue", that issue is because they are pushing out onto a roundabout where they shouldn't be or pulling out into traffic, as opposed to going over what the limit is.
What it isn't, is a speed *limit* issue, since the speeds involved even in the most egregious cases are unlikely to be above the posted limit except possibly in 20 limits. The problem is that decades of emphasis on the number in the roundel means that many actors in this whole debate - not just drivers but also enforcers and roads authorities - seem to have lost sight of the concept of a "suitable speed for the situation". Basically we've had it rammed down our throats that the important thing is to keep your speed under the stated limit, and that has been extended in many people's mind to a presumption that if you're not speeding, you are OK, especially in urban (30 or 20-limited) environments. The concept of driving to the conditions is still somewhat alive in NSL where the vast majority of people's sense of self-preservation will kick in long before 60.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
That might be because the majority of vehicles on the road are now cars, and they therefore by logical conclusion cause the most problems. It's completely blinkered "I'm all right Jack" attitudes that make people think they don't.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 09:02A reaction, perhaps, to the seemingly relentless assertion that the problem is *always* cars. I know it's easy to focus on the shiny boxes on four wheels, but there are other aspects to road safety such as the infrastructure that everyone uses, no matter how many wheels they have or how they are propelled. I never cease to be amazed at the number of separate groups there are who declare themselves to be road safety focussed; there's surely some scope for amalgamation there?
You can own a car and still acknowledge the social problems mass car dependency causes for pollution, safety, and general health. Why people think it's normal to drive kids quarter of a mile to school for example is beyond me. Even 20 years ago it was social suicide to have mummy drop you off at the gates.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
Ironically enough probably because of worries about safety. Have your children toddle off to school unprotected? Perish the thought! What if something happens to them? Better off in the car. This shows how disingenuous many safety arguments are - argue against taking children to school in the car and the retort will be "so you're not bothered about children getting hurt?" Probably made by someone who believes that they're making an unarguable counter-point rather than trying to make you look bad.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:15 You can own a car and still acknowledge the social problems mass car dependency causes for pollution, safety, and general health. Why people think it's normal to drive kids quarter of a mile to school for example is beyond me. Even 20 years ago it was social suicide to have mummy drop you off at the gates.
Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
It is pretty much some weird feedback loop - "the roads are too full of cars so crossing is difficult, I'd better drive then".Helvellyn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:23Ironically enough probably because of worries about safety. Have your children toddle off to school unprotected? Perish the thought! What if something happens to them? Better off in the car. This shows how disingenuous many safety arguments are - argue against taking children to school in the car and the retort will be "so you're not bothered about children getting hurt?" Probably made by someone who believes that they're making an unarguable counter-point rather than trying to make you look bad.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:15 You can own a car and still acknowledge the social problems mass car dependency causes for pollution, safety, and general health. Why people think it's normal to drive kids quarter of a mile to school for example is beyond me. Even 20 years ago it was social suicide to have mummy drop you off at the gates.
There's also of course the paedohysteria that the Mail and Sun were good at whipping up based on one or two very tragic but hardly widespread incidents but that's a wider symptom of helicopter parenting I think, not really road safety related.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
Maybe it's not road safety but it is still all about risk perception and reaction - "there is a risk, this will mitigate it, so why wouldn't I do it?" Size of risk isn't a factor, it's the "no reason not to" perspective.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
From memory, North Yorkshire and Durham were the last holdouts against fixed speed cameras, so it would be one or other of them. I have a feeling that Durham may have some Talivans now; N Yorkshire would then be relying on traditional traffic cop enforcement. This allows them to act as a control group against areas with speed cameras, though N Yorks police area is largely rural, with only York, Harrogate and Scarborough as large cities or towns.ForestChav wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 09:34It was also interesting to see that from their research one county doesn't have any fixed or mobile speed cameras at all, yet doesn't stand out as having a bad accident record, and most of the others have a significant proportion off or not working. I guess it would have been inappropriate for them to say as viewers would just ignore them.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
Yes - this is evidence of infrastructure being designed around car travel and making car travel safe and easy. It clearly wasn't always this way. Roads and motor vehicle priority didn't just magically appear from the mists of time; they're the result of decades of concerted lobbying by motorists and motoring companies. The fury we are seeing at LTNs etc is a combined result of the average motorist getting very upset about any deviation from this now well-established favourable norm, and more organised interests realising that it represents a strategic shift away from car-centric design.Helvellyn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:23Ironically enough probably because of worries about safety. Have your children toddle off to school unprotected? Perish the thought! What if something happens to them? Better off in the car. This shows how disingenuous many safety arguments are - argue against taking children to school in the car and the retort will be "so you're not bothered about children getting hurt?" Probably made by someone who believes that they're making an unarguable counter-point rather than trying to make you look bad.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:15 You can own a car and still acknowledge the social problems mass car dependency causes for pollution, safety, and general health. Why people think it's normal to drive kids quarter of a mile to school for example is beyond me. Even 20 years ago it was social suicide to have mummy drop you off at the gates.
When these people say it is not safe for children to walk to school, they may well be right in an objective sense, but what they're really talking about most of the time is that it doesn't feel safe and convenient, at least when compared to driving a car. This isn't just a natural fact - even if you live a mile or two away from school, a walk (or cycle) along quiet backstreets will feel very different to a slog along a muddy verge on a busy NSL main road, just as a drive down a free-flowing dual carriageway into a spacious car park will feel different from a crawl along a congested main road followed by a wiggly back-streets drive to get as close as possible to the school gates. None of these scenarios arise naturally - all of them are a function of design decisions that have been made (or not made) over the years based on explicit decisions, prevailing standards and norms. When I (lazily, perhaps) use the phrase 'anti-road safety lobbyists', I refer to people who seek to ensure that these decisions continue to favour motorists and motoring every time they come up; the end result being more cars and a worse world for those who aren't in them.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
One thing to also bear in mind is that it's not just transport policy that affects this problem. For the last 40-50 years there's been a policy of closing schools in favour of ever larger single-site locations. From a LEA financial point of view, this may be advantageous, but it also means that for a lot of people they simply can't walk down the road to the neighbourhood school any more in any reasonable timeframe.jnty wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:01 When these people say it is not safe for children to walk to school, they may well be right in an objective sense, but what they're really talking about most of the time is that it doesn't feel safe and convenient, at least when compared to driving a car. This isn't just a natural fact - even if you live a mile or two away from school, a walk (or cycle) along quiet backstreets will feel very different to a slog along a muddy verge on a busy NSL main road, just as a drive down a free-flowing dual carriageway into a spacious car park will feel different from a crawl along a congested main road followed by a wiggly back-streets drive to get as close as possible to the school gates.
For example, and bear in mind that we live in a large city for this, so there's no additional rural issues going on, my son's secondary school is about 2.5 miles away, including crossing a number of extremely busy roads, some of which have minimal pedestrian facilities. However, up until about 10 years ago, there was an alternative secondary school about 1 mile away; but this school is no more and the site is cleared.
It was the same for my daughter - the nearest former primary school building was about 0.5 miles away, and an easy walk (if not the most pleasant). However, the school was converted to a Youth Centre in the 1980s, and so instead she ended up as a five year old at a school 1.5 miles away. And this was from a relative inner city starting point as well.
Reversing this ever-larger schools policy will help with the "school run" issues more than anything else.
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Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
Agreed - and this fits in with the "15/20 minute neighbourhood" idea which is gaining currency in planning and transport circles.Steven wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:32One thing to also bear in mind is that it's not just transport policy that affects this problem. For the last 40-50 years there's been a policy of closing schools in favour of ever larger single-site locations. From a LEA financial point of view, this may be advantageous, but it also means that for a lot of people they simply can't walk down the road to the neighbourhood school any more in any reasonable timeframe.jnty wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:01 When these people say it is not safe for children to walk to school, they may well be right in an objective sense, but what they're really talking about most of the time is that it doesn't feel safe and convenient, at least when compared to driving a car. This isn't just a natural fact - even if you live a mile or two away from school, a walk (or cycle) along quiet backstreets will feel very different to a slog along a muddy verge on a busy NSL main road, just as a drive down a free-flowing dual carriageway into a spacious car park will feel different from a crawl along a congested main road followed by a wiggly back-streets drive to get as close as possible to the school gates.
For example, and bear in mind that we live in a large city for this, so there's no additional rural issues going on, my son's secondary school is about 2.5 miles away, including crossing a number of extremely busy roads, some of which have minimal pedestrian facilities. However, up until about 10 years ago, there was an alternative secondary school about 1 mile away; but this school is no more and the site is cleared.
It was the same for my daughter - the nearest former primary school building was about 0.5 miles away, and an easy walk (if not the most pleasant). However, the school was converted to a Youth Centre in the 1980s, and so instead she ended up as a five year old at a school 1.5 miles away. And this was from a relative inner city starting point as well.
Reversing this ever-larger schools policy will help with the "school run" issues more than anything else.
But the key detail "including crossing a number of extremely busy roads, some of which have minimal pedestrian facilities" is still there. 2.5 flattish miles is quite reasonable on a bike - the sort of distance over which you can sometimes beat car travel times in a busy city. It's maybe a sub 45 minute walk - probably slog territory in winter but a totally reasonable stroll home with your mates in the summer. Yet the walk sounds deeply unpleasant and the cycle is probably verging on impossible for a child.
So while planning policy may have set up this particular failure, transport policy has followed through and knocked it out the park.
Re: Panorama tonight on "Britain's killer roads?"
Pretty much the feedback loop of the news that feeds in to peoples' genuine concerns for their children. The reasons these stories get on even the regional news is thankfully they are very rare, otherwise they would not make the news. However the mind makes them much more common 'the third this year in October' becomes the 'third this month' in the viewers heads.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:28It is pretty much some weird feedback loop - "the roads are too full of cars so crossing is difficult, I'd better drive then".Helvellyn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:23Ironically enough probably because of worries about safety. Have your children toddle off to school unprotected? Perish the thought! What if something happens to them? Better off in the car. This shows how disingenuous many safety arguments are - argue against taking children to school in the car and the retort will be "so you're not bothered about children getting hurt?" Probably made by someone who believes that they're making an unarguable counter-point rather than trying to make you look bad.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:15 You can own a car and still acknowledge the social problems mass car dependency causes for pollution, safety, and general health. Why people think it's normal to drive kids quarter of a mile to school for example is beyond me. Even 20 years ago it was social suicide to have mummy drop you off at the gates.
There's also of course the paedohysteria that the Mail and Sun were good at whipping up based on one or two very tragic but hardly widespread incidents but that's a wider symptom of helicopter parenting I think, not really road safety related.
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