Over the last eight months, the A646 through the centre of Todmorden has had a number of tweaks, including the addition of two new puffins and (soon) one zebra, with the removal of one pelican and two pedestrian refuges off the islands at the roundabout (A6033 junction). I will write the whole thing up sometime when it is finished and the impacts become clearer.
In the meantime, something has struck me as odd. At about 2230 the other evening I walked past one of the new puffins located here - I was on the left-hand pavement as you look. There was nobody else about, but I noticed after I'd passed the crossing had turned red, but changed back to green just before the approaching car had reached the line. Had I inadvertently triggered the contactless proximity sensor when passing - the pavement is rather narrow on that side - or was this a deliberate use of the puffin to slow traffic?
I then remembered I had observed the same thing happen a week earlier, at a similar time when walking down Horton Street in Halifax, and in that case there appeared to be nobody remotely near the crossing when it turned to red, but again it went back to green as a taxi approached the line. Am I imagining things here ?
I have heard of crossings "defaulting" to pedestrian green more. I guess this involves treating them more like a normal junction, where what you're describing wouldn't be unusual.
I believe Leeds are (I presume they still are, anyway) using revert to red on crossings in certain urban situations, particularly those fitted with MOVA that does quite a bit more trickery to better serve pedestrians. It wouldn't surprise me if the idea has spread further afield.
We passed the one in Todmorden again last night on foot at around 1845. As we were approaching, it went to red for the road traffic with no pedestrians near. The pub we had been heading to was unexpectedly closed, so we then needed to use it ourselves, but we hung around a short distance away after crossing and sure enough it changed to red again after a short delay, bringing N-bound traffic to a halt. After that it remained on green for as long as my wife's patience would allow me to watch.
This lunchtime, I finished up waiting for my wife within sight of it, and it was now behaving impeccably, making me think it is not a fault.
One other oddity is that the existing puffin at the entrance to the bus station has not been removed, meaning we now have two on the A646 within about 50m!
FleetlinePhil wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 14:18
We passed the one in Todmorden again last night on foot at around 1845. As we were approaching, it went to red for the road traffic with no pedestrians near. The pub we had been heading to was unexpectedly closed, so we then needed to use it ourselves, but we hung around a short distance away after crossing and sure enough it changed to red again after a short delay, bringing N-bound traffic to a halt. After that it remained on green for as long as my wife's patience would allow me to watch.
This lunchtime, I finished up waiting for my wife within sight of it, and it was now behaving impeccably, making me think it is not a fault.
One other oddity is that the existing puffin at the entrance to the bus station has not been removed, meaning we now have two on the A646 within about 50m!
It does beg the question why should vehicular traffic have the default green light at crossings?
Even in my local (smallish) town there is often a significant build up of pedestrians obstructing footway traffic waiting for the lights to change.
If we measured effectiveness as throughput of people per hour rather than pcu per hour the timings may well be significantly different in many locations along with an emphasis on public transport.
FleetlinePhil wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 14:18
We passed the one in Todmorden again last night on foot at around 1845. As we were approaching, it went to red for the road traffic with no pedestrians near. The pub we had been heading to was unexpectedly closed, so we then needed to use it ourselves, but we hung around a short distance away after crossing and sure enough it changed to red again after a short delay, bringing N-bound traffic to a halt. After that it remained on green for as long as my wife's patience would allow me to watch.
This lunchtime, I finished up waiting for my wife within sight of it, and it was now behaving impeccably, making me think it is not a fault.
One other oddity is that the existing puffin at the entrance to the bus station has not been removed, meaning we now have two on the A646 within about 50m!
It does beg the question why should vehicular traffic have the default green light at crossings?
Even in my local (smallish) town there is often a significant build up of pedestrians obstructing footway traffic waiting for the lights to change.
If we measured effectiveness as throughput of people per hour rather than pcu per hour the timings may well be significantly different in many locations along with an emphasis on public transport.
Yes indeed - and when it's quiet, it's far easier to detect the approach of a car which will pass through the crossing in advance and change the lights to allow it through than it is to do the same for pedestrians, leading to intrinsic delay for pedestrians in the 'normal' configuration. The natural effect of flipping it is to increase compliance, if only through the green man being on when you get there, and to get pedestrians used to the idea that a red man means it is probably unsafe to cross because there's actually a car coming. (A common motorist frustration is the traffic light that is 'always red' even though nobody is coming, yet we tolerate this when on foot by default!)
Of course part of the issue is that it's very easy to get a traffic model to tell you that a certain crossing configuration will cause intolerable traffic queues, yet 'footway congestion' and negative effects on pedestrian mobility/safety are much harder to model.
It depends on the relative density of vehicular vs pedestrian traffic, I guess.
In isolation, it makes more sense to get a person to give way to a car than vice versa, because the energy required to stop and start again is much greater for the car. If you get large flows of either, you obviously have to look at the relative inconvenience to travellers plus any congestion caused by them waiting. And that really depends on what the principal use of the road is - is it a shopping or residential street, or is it a through route for traffic? There really can't be a one-size-fits-all solution to this, neither should it be driven by dogma.
Also, the first question that needs answered is why red ever shows for anyone when there is no conflicting traffic (other than the obvious safety margin represented by all-red phases). It's far from unusual as a pedestrian to press the crossing button and then wait... and wait.... and wait..... for it to give you the green man while there is no traffic coming, and then for it to go red for traffic just as someone approaches. A more intelligent system would allow the pedestrian to be on their way earlier *and* avoid holding up the traffic; it would also reinforce the link in people's minds between "red" and "danger: do not proceed". As it stands, it is frequently not only possible but not remotely dangerous to go on red, especially as a pedestrian or cyclist, and this really is suboptimal for all kinds of reasons.
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I like the idea because, in principle, it improves the situation for pedestrians (and cyclists at a toucan).
However, pedestrians can cross on red, but vehicles (including cyclists and public transport) cannot proceed until the light is green. One concern I have is that drivers – especially local drivers – may think that 'lights are red, but there are no pedestrians and it will always change for me’ and then go through the red anyway.
Therefore, the way I see it, you're not practically improving anything for pedestrians (at a standalone crossing with good visibility), but practically worsening it for vehicles, whether sustainable or not. I think a better solution would be to implement actual traffic calming that actually reduces vehicle speeds, so you can have zebra crossings, or to set up all pedestrian crossings not linked to traffic signals to change immediately upon being called.
FleetlinePhil wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 13:03
Over the last eight months, the A646 through the centre of Todmorden has had a number of tweaks, including the addition of two new puffins and (soon) one zebra, with the removal of one pelican and two pedestrian refuges off the islands at the roundabout (A6033 junction). I will write the whole thing up sometime when it is finished and the impacts become clearer.
The two new puffins (and presumably the new zebra), having been in operation several months, are now adorned with planning notices dated this month seeking permission for their creation . As there are now two puffins within a few metres on the A646 on the Burnley side of the A6033 roundabout, I'm sure there are likely to be some objections from motorised road users.
Such a set up can't be good for emissions either. Approaching driver sees red light, slows down, it turns to green so the driver accelerates. Surely there'd be fewer emissions if the car just sailed through without having to brake/accelerate? Presumably saving the planet can be ignored on the grounds of road safety. Really?
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
It sounds like the situation there's been for some time along Prince of Wales Road in Norwich, at least evenings or overnight when the revellers are about. As you approach the first set of lights they are usually on red and change to green unless it's being used by pedestrians. If you go at 20mph to the next set (and the ones after) they will also change to green just as you approach them (again provided they are no pedestrians)
Conekicker wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 11:09
Such a set up can't be good for emissions either. Approaching driver sees red light, slows down, it turns to green so the driver accelerates. Surely there'd be fewer emissions if the car just sailed through without having to brake/accelerate? Presumably saving the planet can be ignored on the grounds of road safety. Really?
There is that, and there is also the question of whether getting people to stop essentially at random does very much for safety either. This is the issue with humps as well, especially the clumsy, ill-thought-out ones installed by most roads authorities in the UK and Sweden, which generally require you to slow to way below the posted speed limit to avoid damaging your car. In both cases, you don't necessarily reduce the maximum speed vehicles reach, nor do you do anything to make drivers pay more attention to what's going on more than 2 metres in front of them. What red lights and tank traps do do is reduce average speeds over a stretch of road, which allows some bureaucrat to tick a KPI box.
Traffic calming should calm traffic throughout the area where it's felt to be necessary, not just at single points. It should encourage throughput of traffic (motor, cycle, and pedestrian) rather than getting any users to slow down more than necessary or stop. Humps should be safely drivable at the speed limit, but not appreciably faster.
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Interesting - at least one local authority is being up-front about it then .
Incidentally, one afternoon a few weeks back my wife and I used the new puffin on the A646 in Todmorden town centre. There was no southbound traffic (held at the old one 50m away) and nothing visible coming northbound in the short distance from the roundabout with the A6033. As we approached the puffin it changed to a green man - without us using the call button - and we set off over the road. At the point we were halfway across, a car appeared northbound and the crossing instantly changed to green for it , so is the sensor detecting pedestrians disabled in this mode too?
I believe the Birmingham examples were essentially a ramp metering type setup to try and breakup the flow on the roundabout a bit more (similar to those fairly well known examples in Sheffield). Quite why it's signed on the exit ped as well, I'm not too sure.
On-crossing detectors are tied to the fact the pedestrian green has shown and operate in all modes, so they should extend the all red whenever there's a user on the crossing after the green has shown. If you suspect they're not detecting, I'd suggest reporting it to the authority as it's more likely to be a misalignment issue than a true failure (true failures result in the full extensions being applied anyway).
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, so is the sensor detecting pedestrians disabled in this mode too?