M6 Lancaster (Forton) Services

[wallmeerkat]

One thing I always found about English services is that they were quite restrictive on time, usually 2 hours, which if you're planning a services to have restaurants plus leisure facilties, cinemas etc, isn't much.

[domcoop]

That would fall foul of "services musn't be a destitanation in their own right," although I think that providing enough to do whilst a car charges will inevitably blur that line a bit.

If the Moto services moves to a new site south of the existing, then the old site including tower wouldn't be a services anymore (it has access to the local road network) so being a destination in its own right wouldn't be an issue, so a museum would be a good idea. You wouldn't get access from the motorway though.

The problem is as an alternative use, it isn't in a good location. There's nothing there and the nearest population centre (Lancaster) can only reach Forton via a big detour and a busy motorway or via a very congested A6.

[Chris5156]

A cinema seems like a strange choice - that surely would make it a destination in its own right, since it would likely bring in people living nearby who surely don't have a huge number of cinemas within striking distance. And with electric vehicle charging times falling all the time, who is parking up to watch a two hour feature film plus trailers and adverts halfway through their journey?

You get 15 minutes of film at a time, stopping for you next recharge at the next services for the next 15

[KeithW]

A cinema seems like a strange choice - that surely would make it a destination in its own right, since it would likely bring in people living nearby who surely don't have a huge number of cinemas within striking distance. And with electric vehicle charging times falling all the time, who is parking up to watch a two hour feature film plus trailers and adverts halfway through their journey?

Well up until 1981 there was Cartoon Cinema at Victoria Station where passengers could keep the kids quiet while waiting for a train. It was at platform 19 as I recall. It also ran Movietone news productions.

[nowster]

A cinema seems like a strange choice - that surely would make it a destination in its own right, since it would likely bring in people living nearby who surely don't have a huge number of cinemas within striking distance. And with electric vehicle charging times falling all the time, who is parking up to watch a two hour feature film plus trailers and adverts halfway through their journey?

You get 15 minutes of film at a time, stopping for you next recharge at the next services for the next 15

Showing classic black-and-white two reeler shorts? (eg. Laurel and Hardy)

[Bryn666]

I'd watch those two try and get a piano up to the top of the Pennine Tower.

[Was92now625]

A cinema seems like a strange choice - that surely would make it a destination in its own right, since it would likely bring in people living nearby who surely don't have a huge number of cinemas within striking distance. And with electric vehicle charging times falling all the time, who is parking up to watch a two hour feature film plus trailers and adverts halfway through their journey?

You get 15 minutes of film at a time, stopping for you next recharge at the next services for the next 15

Well, officer - the reason I was slightly over the speed limit is that I was delayed getting out of the carpark at the last services and I may not catch the beginning of the next 15 minute chunk at the next services ....

[Glenn A]

One thing I always found about English services is that they were quite restrictive on time, usually 2 hours, which if you're planning a services to have restaurants plus leisure facilties, cinemas etc, isn't much.

Yes this would need to be either be axed, or a large pay and display car park set up for those wanting to stay longer. I'm all in favour of motorway service stations moving on from merely being a place to get fuel and eat poor quality food at high prices, as some are in quite good locations.

[Ruperts Trooper]

One thing I always found about English services is that they were quite restrictive on time, usually 2 hours, which if you're planning a services to have restaurants plus leisure facilties, cinemas etc, isn't much.

Yes this would need to be either be axed, or a large pay and display car park set up for those wanting to stay longer. I'm all in favour of motorway service stations moving on from merely being a place to get fuel and eat poor quality food at high prices, as some are in quite good locations.

Maybe some MSAs can be turned into retail parks but we need more places on the road network where drivers can simply rest, ideally at 15 min intervals then no-one is tempted to drive on tired or a choice of stopping early. I've no idea what the figures are but there must be a large number of HGV, van and car drivers who simply want somewhere to park for a rest and use the toilet - since that doesn't generate any income there needs to be a debate on funding.

[Glenn A]

The MSAs have changed considerably over the last 40 years. Instead of having one cafe on either side of the carriageway with an often dismal choice of meals and snacks at high prices, most now boast several franchises. Not that they're cheap, although Greggs prices are similar to their town centre outlets, but the biggers ones have KFC, Burger King, Costa, Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts franchises and for some reason, one armed bandits are often found. I think a logical extension to this would be to allow franchises like Toby Carvery( minus alcoholic drinks) and Pizza Express to establish restaurants at the most popular MSAs.

[Helvellyn]

Maybe some MSAs can be turned into retail parks but we need more places on the road network where drivers can simply rest, ideally at 15 min intervals then no-one is tempted to drive on tired or a choice of stopping early. I've no idea what the figures are but there must be a large number of HGV, van and car drivers who simply want somewhere to park for a rest and use the toilet - since that doesn't generate any income there needs to be a debate on funding.

Doesn't that bring us back to their original purpose somewhat? A facility for taking that sort of break. It needs someone to pay to run it, so private companies were left to do it because facilities like a cafe and a petrol station could make them some money, they just had to provide the required facilities as a condition of being able to have the ones that made money.

[RichardA626]

Some early MSAs had innovative restaurants like the Captain's Table ones at the MSAs run by Ross Fisheries.

I presume these didn't pay for themselves & were replaced with the cheaper to run cafes that were more like a works canteen.

[Glenn A]

Some early MSAs had innovative restaurants like the Captain's Table ones at the MSAs run by Ross Fisheries.

I presume these didn't pay for themselves & were replaced with the cheaper to run cafes that were more like a works canteen.

A few had waitress service and were aimed at the more affluent motorist, but these probably didn't make much money and went over to the self service format. I'm sure now with Tripadvisor and travellers demanding better quality and diversity in their meals, MSAs could introduce restaurants.

[Norfolktolancashire]

I hope the "Mushroom" isn't to be knocked down !

It's listed so they'd have to find a very good excuse.

It could always be moved to Ayr and laid sideways.....

They could knock down the motel though, a few ropey nights spent in there last winter!

[KeithW]

A few had waitress service and were aimed at the more affluent motorist, but these probably didn't make much money and went over to the self service format. I'm sure now with Tripadvisor and travellers demanding better quality and diversity in their meals, MSAs could introduce restaurants.

My experience of MSA's is most people stop to use the toilets and grab a coffee and a sandwich at most, the exception is usually truck drivers who have to take and log mandatory breaks. In the case of Forton there was originally a fine dining restaurant in the tower that could handle 100 diners but in reality rarely had as many as a dozen. In the first 3 months of 1967 it lost £700 which would be pushing £20,000 today.

They then turned the tower into a truckers lounge on the not unrealistic idea that they would be taking a break but even that was not a great success and it was closed to the public and converted to office space in the late 1980's. Most of the original Rank and Granada sites tried the same thing, often on motorway overbridges with the same lack of success, what has worked out is fast food.

Personally I would suggest adopting the US practice of large rest areas with lots of free parking, good clean toilets and security cameras such as this one in Ohio.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9462598 ... &entry=ttu

Couple it with commercial areas just off the junction and you have a winner I think. See this example not far from the Licking Rest Area.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9496386 ... &entry=ttu

On the plus side there is usually competition with more than gas station and restaurant.

A nice grainy B&W pic of the Tower in its Prime here

[wallmeerkat]

NI had a clean sheet when introducing services for the first time and ended up with a glorified shopping centre style food court with chain restaurants (usually Greggs - the first in NI, Chopstix, Burger King)

https://motorwayservices.uk/Lisburn

[exiled]

Personally I would suggest adopting the US practice of large rest areas with lots of free parking, good clean toilets and security cameras such as this one in Ohio.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9462598 ... &entry=ttu

Couple it with commercial areas just off the junction and you have a winner I think. See this example not far from the Licking Rest Area.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9496386 ... &entry=ttu

The question then is 'who pays for the maintenance?' The Rest Areas on the French autoroutes that are still open are maintained by the Autoroute companies themselves from the toll revenue. Without someway of making them pay the rest areas would become unpleasant places very quickly if the various Highway Authorities are having to pay out of general funds. Heck we already have that with some proper MSAs being unpleasant places to be overnight. CCTV cameras are no replacement for staff being present at a rest area or services.

The French have closed some of the rest areas for that very reason to leave just MSAs.

[KeithW]

The question then is 'who pays for the maintenance?' The Rest Areas on the French autoroutes that are still open are maintained by the Autoroute companies themselves from the toll revenue. Without someway of making them pay the rest areas would become unpleasant places very quickly if the various Highway Authorities are having to pay out of general funds. Heck we already have that with some proper MSAs being unpleasant places to be overnight. CCTV cameras are no replacement for staff being present at a rest area or services.

The French have closed some of the rest areas for that very reason to leave just MSAs.

Typically US Interstate rest areas are paid for by gasoline taxes as I recall. These are set at federal and state level. Here is what raises the money in Ohio

Ohio's tax of 38.5 cents per gallon of gasoline and 47 cents per gallon of diesel fuel is the main way the state pays for road construction and maintenance. Between July 2021 and June 2022, drivers paid more than $2.6 billion in gas and diesel taxes, according to ODOT

[exiled]

The question then is 'who pays for the maintenance?' The Rest Areas on the French autoroutes that are still open are maintained by the Autoroute companies themselves from the toll revenue. Without someway of making them pay the rest areas would become unpleasant places very quickly if the various Highway Authorities are having to pay out of general funds. Heck we already have that with some proper MSAs being unpleasant places to be overnight. CCTV cameras are no replacement for staff being present at a rest area or services.

The French have closed some of the rest areas for that very reason to leave just MSAs.

Typically US Interstate rest areas are paid for by gasoline taxes as I recall. These are set at federal and state level. Here is what raises the money in Ohio

Ohio's tax of 38.5 cents per gallon of gasoline and 47 cents per gallon of diesel fuel is the main way the state pays for road construction and maintenance. Between July 2021 and June 2022, drivers paid more than $2.6 billion in gas and diesel taxes, according to ODOT

The gas taxes that has not gone up sufficiently to maintain pace with inflation? So again who pays? Without businesses running them and having a vested interest in making them pay it will fall to the highways agencies on fixed budgets that are already having to repair a £5 hole with 5p.