A34 North to M40 North Dedicated Slip

[jackal]

I don't really see the issue with having one well-aligned freeflow left turn and another signalised left turn provided it's signed appropriately.

The previous queues were mostly because there was very little width on the approach, only widening to three lanes at the last minute. See Richard's 2014 GSV above.

If they'd extended the 3/4 lane section as they have but kept the freeflow left turn (on a slightly improved alignment) it'd work better than it presently does. All else equal, 1 freeflow+1 signalised beats 2 signalised.

[Bryn666]

I specifically made sure the road markings and signs approaching M6 J19 made it clear you could use both the free-flow lane or lane 2 to get onto the southbound M6, although apparently there is a missing lane marking symbol on the sign for some reason (which was not like that on my design).

https://maps.app.goo.gl/nyy1pLu493FqRtMo7

[jackal]

^ That's almost exactly how the M40/A34 pinchpoint scheme should've been done.

[jnty]

I don't really see the issue with having one well-aligned freeflow left turn and another signalised left turn provided it's signed appropriately.

Is there not an increased risk of drivers pulling out of a queue in lane 2 suddenly to make use of the the lane 1 freeflow? I guess there's a risk of that happening in all sorts of queuing lane configurations though.

[Jonathan B4027]

Could always build this proposal, that was part of a proposed eco town at Wendlebury that never got anywhere.

viewtopic.php?p=681042#p681042

[6637]

The junction's fundamental issue is that a roundabout is a terrible junction design for when one of the roundabout's movements is dominant over the rest.

[jackal]

Could always build this proposal, that was part of a proposed eco town at Wendlebury that never got anywhere.

viewtopic.php?p=681042#p681042

Kind of a British roundabout-centric take on a 6 ramp parclo. I quite like it.

[Chris Bertram]

How many cyclists are on that section of the A34 and want to join the M40 though?

It doesn't have to be very many, it just has to be "enough", and that can be defined however you like depending on your priorities.

Cyclists joining a MOTORWAY though?

I think solocle has already described the problem for cyclists avoiding being forced onto the motorway by the lane arrangements.

[ForestChav]

It doesn't have to be very many, it just has to be "enough", and that can be defined however you like depending on your priorities.

Cyclists joining a MOTORWAY though?

I think solocle has already described the problem for cyclists avoiding being forced onto the motorway by the lane arrangements.

They could still choose to avoid the island completely, knowing that they are busy and dangerous, not always straight forward and needs a bit of planning ahead though.

Also, I'm not sure they can be "forced" on the motorway despite what solocle said, because that assumes they are compelled to carry on; they always have the option to stop, take the bike off the road completely and take a break whilst a gap appears. The issue of needing to be in the right hand lane on a 3 lane busy dual carriageway roundabout for a motorway junction on a cycle isn't the safest thing or the most sensible thing to do in my book. But then I don't cycle on the roads because I don't think it's safe to.

[solocle]

Cyclists joining a MOTORWAY though?

I think solocle has already described the problem for cyclists avoiding being forced onto the motorway by the lane arrangements.

They could still choose to avoid the island completely, knowing that they are busy and dangerous, not always straight forward and needs a bit of planning ahead though.

Also, I'm not sure they can be "forced" on the motorway despite what solocle said, because that assumes they are compelled to carry on; they always have the option to stop, take the bike off the road completely and take a break whilst a gap appears. The issue of needing to be in the right hand lane on a 3 lane busy dual carriageway roundabout for a motorway junction on a cycle isn't the safest thing or the most sensible thing to do in my book. But then I don't cycle on the roads because I don't think it's safe to.

Well, the A34 is a clearway, so legally speaking, you are actually compelled not to stop if at all possible.
Northbound, I'd feel really uncomfortable stopping there. There's no space to pull off the road, no hard strip. Just a kerb and immediate armco. In contrast the southbound carriageway I rode on (at rush hour ) has a generous hard strip for a mile or two, and then an illegally rideable hatched buffer of a similar width as far as the Kidlington turning. It wasn't a massive amount of space, but it makes a monumental difference.

Here's someone else riding that section:

(14:00)

[ForestChav]

Well, the A34 is a clearway, so legally speaking, you are actually compelled not to stop if at all possible.
Northbound, I'd feel really uncomfortable stopping there. There's no space to pull off the road, no hard strip. Just a kerb and immediate armco. In contrast the southbound carriageway I rode on (at rush hour ) has a generous hard strip for a mile or two, and then an illegally rideable hatched buffer of a similar width as far as the Kidlington turning. It wasn't a massive amount of space, but it makes a monumental difference.

Here's someone else riding that section:

(14:00)

Literally wouldn't be convinced doing so is a good idea...

... that notwithstanding, of course you're entirely technically correct about stopping on a clearway. But, I guess getting off and stopping but not dying is better than thinking "oh i mustn't stop on the clearway even though this HGV is right on me" and getting injured or worse. At least if you're alive you can argue why you stopped.

But these roads really do need to be signed to recommend cyclists don't use them (irrespective of right of way) because quite simply it's not safe.

[solocle]

Well, the A34 is a clearway, so legally speaking, you are actually compelled not to stop if at all possible.
Northbound, I'd feel really uncomfortable stopping there. There's no space to pull off the road, no hard strip. Just a kerb and immediate armco. In contrast the southbound carriageway I rode on (at rush hour ) has a generous hard strip for a mile or two, and then an illegally rideable hatched buffer of a similar width as far as the Kidlington turning. It wasn't a massive amount of space, but it makes a monumental difference.

Here's someone else riding that section:

(14:00)

Literally wouldn't be convinced doing so is a good idea...

... that notwithstanding, of course you're entirely technically correct about stopping on a clearway. But, I guess getting off and stopping but not dying is better than thinking "oh i mustn't stop on the clearway even though this HGV is right on me" and getting injured or worse. At least if you're alive you can argue why you stopped.

But these roads really do need to be signed to recommend cyclists don't use them (irrespective of right of way) because quite simply it's not safe.

Well, I'm not above using hatched areas, so clearway restrictions wouldn't be a big deal themselves... In fact I have photos from breaking both laws.

That said on a dual carriageway like the A34, I'd want to get off the road, which would actually then be complying with the clearway anyway. Stopping in a live lane would feel incredibly sketchy, especially at a junction where there's a lot going on!

But without a lot of remedial work, there are sections of dual carriageway that are incredibly hard to avoid - for instance, the A30 across Bodmin Moor, the A303 (left picture) if you want to visit Stonehenge,...

And the A34 between the Ilsleys and Chilton.

[fras]

I specifically made sure the road markings and signs approaching M6 J19 made it clear you could use both the free-flow lane or lane 2 to get onto the southbound M6, although apparently there is a missing lane marking symbol on the sign for some reason (which was not like that on my design).

https://maps.app.goo.gl/nyy1pLu493FqRtMo7

I've been this way a lot, and although it's useful, when you get onto the actual slip to the M6 South, it narrows to a single lane. However traffic coming round from the right is quite minimal in my experience, so it all works quite well. This whole junction does seem to work pretty well, and as I was a doubter originally, I doff my hat to the designer, and the chap who programmed the traffic lights !

[BOH]

It doesn't have to be very many, it just has to be "enough", and that can be defined however you like depending on your priorities.

Cyclists joining a MOTORWAY though?

I think solocle has already described the problem for cyclists avoiding being forced onto the motorway by the lane arrangements.

Then what happens when cyclists approach the thousands of other off-slip roads on all the other dual carriageways in the UK?? Same problem surely....why would a dedicated off-slip at this location be particularly bad for cyclists compared to all the others?

[solocle]

Cyclists joining a MOTORWAY though?

I think solocle has already described the problem for cyclists avoiding being forced onto the motorway by the lane arrangements.

Then what happens when cyclists approach the thousands of other off-slip roads on all the other dual carriageways in the UK?? Same problem surely....why would a dedicated off-slip at this location be particularly bad for cyclists compared to all the others?

Because in most circumstances taking an off slip isn't a major deal. You can go down it and cross it at the gore point, crossing a slip road is much easier than crossing a dual carriageway. Or you can even go to the inevitable roundabout junction and rejoin the dual carriageway that way, without crossing slips at all.

Crossing a slip road - even more space on an APDC with a hard shoulder.

But taking a motorway off slip obviously is a major issue. Crossing a slip road between the A34 and M40 northbound at that location would be effectively approaching attempting to cross the A34 itself, as it's the dominant flow.

[Richard_Fairhurst]

In a sane world cyclists would be explicitly banned from the A34 and A41 here and loudly routed along the parallel unclassified road.

In that self-same sane world there'd be a point closure on the parallel unclassified road somewhere near Wendlebury, making it safe for cyclists and preventing it being used as a rat-run...

[Vierwielen]

Cyclists joining a MOTORWAY though?

The point is if you don't want to join the motorway you then have to get across to one of the rightmost lanes of the A34. On a bicycle. At least with the current layout you could potentially wait for a red signal phase.

I've done it, at a quiet time, at Winnall. Still not fun. And due to sat nav craziness I have made the complementary southbound movement at Wendlebury, which is much more straightforward as you can stay in the left lane.

In a sane world cyclists would be explicitly banned from the A34 and A41 here and loudly routed along the parallel unclassified road. But that's all all irrelevant to this thread, really. The point is that there absolutely no version of reality where the road authority decided that a nearside slip was the optimal configuration for motorised traffic flow but threw it out due to influence from the shadowy London Cycling Lobby as is being conspiratorially claimed here.

Alternatively follow the solution adopted at Junction 11 of the M4.

[ChrisH]

I think solocle has already described the problem for cyclists avoiding being forced onto the motorway by the lane arrangements.

Then what happens when cyclists approach the thousands of other off-slip roads on all the other dual carriageways in the UK?? Same problem surely....why would a dedicated off-slip at this location be particularly bad for cyclists compared to all the others?

Because in most circumstances taking an off slip isn't a major deal. You can go down it and cross it at the gore point, crossing a slip road is much easier than crossing a dual carriageway. Or you can even go to the inevitable roundabout junction and rejoin the dual carriageway that way, without crossing slips at all.

Crossing a slip road - even more space on an APDC with a hard shoulder.

But taking a motorway off slip obviously is a major issue. Crossing a slip road between the A34 and M40 northbound at that location would be effectively approaching attempting to cross the A34 itself, as it's the dominant flow.

This is similar to the new layout at the A14/M11 Girton junction: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pDwHd6xtzXMKnKGf6 - although in that case a cyclist on the A14 (!) would be able to continue in Lane 1 and end up not on the motorway, as long as they didn't get hit by a driver entering the M11 slip road.

[solocle]

This is similar to the new layout at the A14/M11 Girton junction: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pDwHd6xtzXMKnKGf6 - although in that case a cyclist on the A14 (!) would be able to continue in Lane 1 and end up not on the motorway, as long as they didn't get hit by a driver entering the M11 slip road.

Back in Dec 2019 I was riding an audax up there and actually encountered a diversion onto the new A14 at Bar Hill, as the A1307 hadn't been finished to Swavesey. I was leading several other riders - so decided to ignore the road closed signs instead. A bit of coned off tarmac on the A14 carriageway got us to Swavesey much more comfortably.

In the case of that junction, presumably the M11 is a minor flow, with the A11 taking the bulk of strategic traffic. Regardless, I'd suggest if it were busy that de minimis cycling on the motorway might be a safer approach:

I've walked past an M25 sign before, although that was on a footway