It's sad to see. While there are a lot of movements at M42 J6, I don't see why National Highways didn't proceed with converting the stackabout to a whirlpool. It's a rather strange decision not to undertake, however, given the current trend of car dependent development in the UK, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this spurs up a multitude of new housing developments in and around an area, making the situation even worse. At any rate, let's hope that the new link road doesn't end up like the Witney Bypass, whereby a high-speed dual carriageway with GSJs was interrupted with a new, teeny tiny roundabout right in the middle of the route.jackal wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:41 In Bratislava you can see a stacked roundabout on Google satellite, while the mapping shows it has recently been replaced with a whirlpool:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@48.14173 ... ?entry=ttu
A stackabout was similarly replaced by this whirlpool at Lummen, Belgium, a decade ago:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.99957 ... ?entry=ttu
Meanwhile at M42 J6...
M42 Junction 6 improvement
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Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
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- Mapper89062
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Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... e%20V5.pdfAnOrdinarySABREUser wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 16:24It's sad to see. While there are a lot of movements at M42 J6, I don't see why National Highways didn't proceed with converting the stackabout to a whirlpool. It's a rather strange decision not to undertake, however, given the current trend of car dependent development in the UK, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this spurs up a multitude of new housing developments in and around an area, making the situation even worse. At any rate, let's hope that the new link road doesn't end up like the Witney Bypass, whereby a high-speed dual carriageway with GSJs was interrupted with a new, teeny tiny roundabout right in the middle of the route.jackal wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:41 In Bratislava you can see a stacked roundabout on Google satellite, while the mapping shows it has recently been replaced with a whirlpool:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@48.14173 ... ?entry=ttu
A stackabout was similarly replaced by this whirlpool at Lummen, Belgium, a decade ago:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.99957 ... ?entry=ttu
Meanwhile at M42 J6...
It was rejected because of its cost, disruption to road users during construction and poor value for money (some of the low BCR no doubt coming from the high cost but I suspect also partly because it doesn't fit with the service area and other development).
Edit: from reading the TAR, another disadvantage is that it makes access between the M42 and the NEC and motorcycle museum worse. This is another example of development being allowed to mess up a strategic junction with direct access - I note that the Belgium and Bratislava junctions have no such construction directly off them.
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Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
Actually there was no BCR for the whirlpool (option 3D) because it was rejected at an early stage. Costs were calculated but benefits were not. The appraisal was largely qualitative and came down to a critical mass of the designers feeling uncomfortable about a large freeflow junction, which for most of them would be a completely alien concept, having spent their working lives with roundabouts and signals. (See TAR from p. 61.)Mapper89062 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 16:54 https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... e%20V5.pdf
It was rejected because of its cost, disruption to road users during construction and poor value for money (some of the low BCR no doubt coming from the high cost but I suspect also partly because it doesn't fit with the service area and other development).
Edit: from reading the TAR, another disadvantage is that it makes access between the M42 and the NEC and motorcycle museum worse. This is another example of development being allowed to mess up a strategic junction with direct access - I note that the Belgium and Bratislava junctions have no such construction directly off them.
For instance, for traffic they rated the whirlpool the same ('best') as the South Junction (2A and 2K) options, which are basically similar to what's being built, even though it's obvious that a full freeflow junction will be vastly better for traffic than roundabouts.
For safety, they rated the interchange as worst due to 'safety issues from GD04 assessment regarding impact to road workers' - apparently the fact that it removes conflicts between millions of vehicles per year is irrelevant compared to a very occasional and speculative risk maintaining freeflow links (how does the rest of the world manage?). The SAR explains that the preferred option has 'an increase in the number of conflict points associated with the introduction of additional roundabout junctions, which also gives rise to a predicted increase in accident numbers' (p. 46). It was actually projected to result in 133 additional casualties during the assessment period. No equivalent safety assessment was ever undertaken for the whirlpool because it wasn't allowed to get that far - but you can be sure it would remove conflict points rather than add to them. Nevertheless it was rated as least safe and the roundabout-based 2K as most safe.
Four stakeholders (Birmingham Airport, NEC, NMM, Jaguar LR) didn't like the whirlpool, mostly due to disruption during construction. This was treated as an important selection criterion - a hundreds of millions of pounds investment at a nationally important interchange guided by the whims of a motorcycle museum. Given the treatment of the other criteria, one also wonders what kind of advice HE were giving the stakeholders about the options - the airport and JLR at least would have greatly benefited from a freeflow junction.
Perhaps most tellingly, there was no economic appraisal of the whirlpool. The TAR (p. 69) outrageously conflates economic value with construction cost: 'significantly exceeds budget thus providing limited return in value for money'. How can you calculate value for money when you have a numerator but no denominator?
I could go on, but in short, no the whirlpool wasn't rejected due to a poor BCR, but because the poor decisions of the design group prevented it (or any other sensible design) from getting far enough to get a BCR.
Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
This is the worst UK interchange design - even Wisley has more freeflow for less money. If you can't say that on a UK roads forum, where exactly can you say it? I've commented on scores of other designs here and they were all better. And even for this one we have made many constructive comments - as noted above, there was a pleasant back-and-forth with an obviously very capable engineer on this project.AnOrdinarySABREUser wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 20:37Quite! I understand that the preferred layout isn’t the best and has a lot of issues, but why can’t we give constructive feedback instead of calling it ‘rubbish’? If the designers ended up listening to some of the people on here, I’m sure that all of our cities would be no different than American ones like Austin in Texas - proper concrete jungles and constant widening projects.
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Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
I'm sorry about my comment regarding constructive criticism. I'm not sure what I was thinking of at the time and it's clear to me now that this is all constructive criticism. Perhaps the preferred route looked better to me at first glance than it does now.jackal wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 21:35 This is the worst UK interchange design - even Wisley has more freeflow for less money. If you can't say that on a UK roads forum, where exactly can you say it? I've commented on scores of other designs here and they were all better. And even for this one we have made many constructive comments - as noted above, there was a pleasant back-and-forth with an obviously very capable engineer on this project.
I agree with all of your points about the preferred route and the whirlpool. While the whirlpool would require the closure of several links due to a lack of weaving space, it would be far better in the long-term compared to the preferred route. I imagine that adding any freeflow links to the preferred route will add an unnecessary layer of complexity and do little to resolve the problems at present with it. It'd be far better to convert M42 J6 into a dumbbell instead and build new links heading into the airport. I must say that this is a rather unfortunate situation indeed with the route that NH chose to proceed with.
Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
Good that you’ve been entirely fair by picking the smallest of the four stakeholders there.jackal wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 21:35 …
Four stakeholders (Birmingham Airport, NEC, NMM, Jaguar LR) didn't like the whirlpool, mostly due to disruption during construction. This was treated as an important selection criterion - a hundreds of millions of pounds investment at a nationally important interchange guided by the whims of a motorcycle museum
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- Alderpoint
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Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
It's not exactly the most desirable location for housing, being directly under the flight approach to the airport. Indeed the majority of existing housing in Bickehall village is owned by the airport as so few people want to live there. It's also all green belt.AnOrdinarySABREUser wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 16:24 I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this spurs up a multitude of new housing developments in and around an area, making the situation even worse.
Let it snow.
Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
I've done a video from/to M42 - Bickenhill Lane area here: https://youtu.be/6UqYgGfclIg .
Nearside/offside view here: https://youtu.be/GMDd-lXHKng .
Nearside/offside view here: https://youtu.be/GMDd-lXHKng .
Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
Which means nothing these days. Land around the edge of the conurbation is being built on left right and centre at the moment.
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- Jonathan B4027
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Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
I popped down today to get some photos of the imaginatively named A4545.
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Casino Manager: "It was a good night. Nothing Unusual."
Harold Shand: "Nothing unusual," he says! Eric's been blown to smithereens, Colin's been carved up, and I've got a bomb in me casino, and you say nothing unusual ?"
Harold Shand: "Nothing unusual," he says! Eric's been blown to smithereens, Colin's been carved up, and I've got a bomb in me casino, and you say nothing unusual ?"
- Jonathan B4027
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Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
Some more
- Attachments
Casino Manager: "It was a good night. Nothing Unusual."
Harold Shand: "Nothing unusual," he says! Eric's been blown to smithereens, Colin's been carved up, and I've got a bomb in me casino, and you say nothing unusual ?"
Harold Shand: "Nothing unusual," he says! Eric's been blown to smithereens, Colin's been carved up, and I've got a bomb in me casino, and you say nothing unusual ?"
- Jonathan B4027
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Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
Last one.
Casino Manager: "It was a good night. Nothing Unusual."
Harold Shand: "Nothing unusual," he says! Eric's been blown to smithereens, Colin's been carved up, and I've got a bomb in me casino, and you say nothing unusual ?"
Harold Shand: "Nothing unusual," he says! Eric's been blown to smithereens, Colin's been carved up, and I've got a bomb in me casino, and you say nothing unusual ?"
Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
Excellent, thanks... I just didn't have the time a couple of days ago to have a proper look as is usually the case.
- Jonathan B4027
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Re: M42 Junction 6 improvement
A few more from this weekend, now that the bridge on Catherine de Barnes lane has opened.
- Attachments
Casino Manager: "It was a good night. Nothing Unusual."
Harold Shand: "Nothing unusual," he says! Eric's been blown to smithereens, Colin's been carved up, and I've got a bomb in me casino, and you say nothing unusual ?"
Harold Shand: "Nothing unusual," he says! Eric's been blown to smithereens, Colin's been carved up, and I've got a bomb in me casino, and you say nothing unusual ?"