Botched Roadsigns

[Bryn666]

From the low-hanging fruit of temporary roadworks signs we have these circular Stop signs on the Stoneleigh exit on the A46.


IMG_3443.jpeg

So do you wait for someone to turn them to "go", or risk getting a ticket?

The circular stop sign at roadworks has not been used for some time - so these are complete botches even if they were relying on a reversal to say "go".

I've argued this was one of the most pointless sign changes in UK history as the circular stop sign had a very different meaning to the octagonal one - the latter means stop and give way, the former meant stop until given clearance to proceed (like a traffic light).

[BeamNG Lover]

Hello. This is my first post here, but I have been an observer of sorts so I kind of know the ropes. However I knew I had to share this unusual one in Maidstone that I have just discovered.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.2821435 ... ?entry=ttu
It originally had the standard '30 - 20 zone ends' sign until July 2015. At this time the '20 zone ends' part was quite faded. But then when Street View revisits in May 2019, the sign seems to have been completely replaced as the '20 zone ends' is now fresh.

[Big L]

A 20 limit and a 20 zone are different things with different requirements. A 20 zone should have traffic calming and doesn’t need repeater signs. A 20 limit ought to have repeaters.

[Bryn666]

Hello. This is my first post here, but I have been an observer of sorts so I kind of know the ropes. However I knew I had to share this unusual one in Maidstone that I have just discovered.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.2821435 ... ?entry=ttu
It originally had the standard '30 - 20 zone ends' sign until July 2015. At this time the '20 zone ends' part was quite faded. But then when Street View revisits in May 2019, the sign seems to have been completely replaced as the '20 zone ends' is now fresh.

20 zones exiting into a 20 limit should just use a normal 20 mph roundel, so this is very much a botch.

[BeamNG Lover]

Can traffic bollards and illuminated signs (the illumination methods are the botch, not the sign itself) be included in this thread? I think I have found 3 botches within a very small area at Heathrow, although 2 of them are very similar. I just thought I would ask before I dumped the mall here.
Edit: Too funny to omit, but 'the mall' is meant to be 'them all'. I'm sure the king would be quite cross if the Mall was stolen and dumped online

[swissferry]

Can traffic bollards and illuminated signs (the illumination methods are the botch, not the sign itself) be included in this thread? I think I have found 3 botches within a very small area at Heathrow, although 2 of them are very similar. I just thought I would ask before I dumped the mall here.
Edit: Too funny to omit, but 'the mall' is meant to be 'them all'. I'm sure the king would be quite cross if the Mall was stolen and dumped online

Threads have a tendency to drift. Drifting from signs to bollards isn't much of a drift. I don't have an issue with bollards being posted to this thread - though I do like the sound of a "botched bollards" thread.

[the cheesecake man]

Threads have a tendency to drift. Drifting from signs to bollards isn't much of a drift. I don't have an issue with bollards being posted to this thread - though I do like the sound of a "botched bollards" thread.

Did someone say bollards?

[MotorwayGuy]

Bollards with the wrong sign are everywhere, the most common being keep left ones used instead of blank.

This is one of the more legitimate uses of the "pass either side" variant, shame that the no entry sign above is missing an "except buses" plate. The next one along is wrong though. Here's another not far away. My favourite one is this that I've posted before and has since been corrected.

Something that's more interesting is apparently the B178 is primary!

[SouthWest Philip]

Something that's more interesting is apparently the B178 is primary!

I think it may actually have been a primary B-road before the M25 opened. I seem to recall maps of that era showing it as such.

[Darren]

I hadn't realised how many botched signs there were showing lane changes at junctions.

Of the four below (on the M25, M20 and A249), only one is correct...

M25: https://maps.app.goo.gl/TkeUH6wQsJhvTtNAA
M20: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ocfpDzRDTm5fAPiY9
A249: https://maps.app.goo.gl/hUjKBZPn6r9n2zyk9
and https://maps.app.goo.gl/yPDaL9gLAFkUuRGK7

You'd have thought the companies making the signs would have pointed out that they were a bit dodgy before they manufactured them!

[Conekicker]

Many sign manufacturers tend not to point out sign design errors when their customers send them dodgy stuff. They don't want to upset the customer and risk losing future orders from them.

Despite what ARTSM might have you believe, when it comes to sign manufacturers pointing out any errors, like they are supposed to do.

[Bryn666]

I hadn't realised how many botched signs there were showing lane changes at junctions.

Of the four below (on the M25, M20 and A249), only one is correct...

M25: https://maps.app.goo.gl/TkeUH6wQsJhvTtNAA
M20: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ocfpDzRDTm5fAPiY9
A249: https://maps.app.goo.gl/hUjKBZPn6r9n2zyk9
and https://maps.app.goo.gl/yPDaL9gLAFkUuRGK7

You'd have thought the companies making the signs would have pointed out that they were a bit dodgy before they manufactured them!

Are you referring to the graphic representation of the chevron area? Before these merge signs were codified properly in 1994 there were a lot using that - you see several around Manchester too:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/fNWQrjrpopAbCasn7
https://maps.app.goo.gl/zrWiYmTEr54CXLAt6

I would suspect they were all special authorisations prior to the 1994 regs. The one showing a taper "replaced" the triangular merge for a while but thankfully sense prevailed and we use the triangle again.

[EthanL13]

Are such types of signs still used for merges only, when there are no lane gains?

[Conekicker]

Are such types of signs still used for merges only, when there are no lane gains?

No. The only ones prescribed in TSRGD these days, for lane gains and lane drops, are:

Diagrams 873 and 874 - Additional traffic joining from the left or right ahead and
Diagram 872.1 - The number of traffic lanes reduces ahead.

I can't recall if the permanent merge ones were ever prescribed, although the temporary ones, Diagram 7252 and 7253 were, in 1994. The permanent signs were shown in a TA or TD, the precise number and title of which escapes me and I can't be bothered to look up if it's still current. Bomag might know. Where there might be a saving for them I'm not sure but TSRGD 2016 revokes TSRGD 2002, which kills off all previous savings, so they might very well no longer be prescribed and should be replaced with Diagrams 508.1 and 509.1.

Where there is a temporary or altered merge situation, the permanent Diagrams 508.1 and 509.1 should be used if appropriate. The idea being that the triangular signs simply show the presence of the merge, without going to the faff of showing how many lanes there are - it should be pretty obvious to drivers anyway.

Edit - I think the permanent lane drop sign should now be to Diagram 877 (S11-2-22) possibly with the solid line bounded chevron marking as shown in S12-5-6 as appropriate. Such a sign would probably be wider than the old style lane drop designs. On motorways, the height of the sign should be 1800mm and look similar to the last image shown on the link below but mirrored (and without the two-headed arrow). Whether it would be needed, given that directional signing showing the lane drop would be present, either as verge mounted or gantry signs, would be a decision for the designer to make.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 2-p877.pdf
Something like this:

877.png (8.01 KiB) Viewed 696 times

[Truvelo]

I hadn't realised how many botched signs there were showing lane changes at junctions.

Of the four below (on the M25, M20 and A249), only one is correct...

M25: https://maps.app.goo.gl/TkeUH6wQsJhvTtNAA
M20: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ocfpDzRDTm5fAPiY9
A249: https://maps.app.goo.gl/hUjKBZPn6r9n2zyk9
and https://maps.app.goo.gl/yPDaL9gLAFkUuRGK7

You'd have thought the companies making the signs would have pointed out that they were a bit dodgy before they manufactured them!

Are you referring to the graphic representation of the chevron area? Before these merge signs were codified properly in 1994 there were a lot using that - you see several around Manchester too:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/fNWQrjrpopAbCasn7
https://maps.app.goo.gl/zrWiYmTEr54CXLAt6

I would suspect they were all special authorisations prior to the 1994 regs. The one showing a taper "replaced" the triangular merge for a while but thankfully sense prevailed and we use the triangle again.

For years there were botched signs of this type on the M6 when heading to the M56 at J20a. The signs incorrectly showed the slip road having to merge to traffic from the right when in fact there was traffic merging from the left. The signs were eventually replaced after a long wait.

[Bryn666]

Are such types of signs still used for merges only, when there are no lane gains?

No. The only ones prescribed in TSRGD these days, for lane gains and lane drops, are:

Diagrams 873 and 874 - Additional traffic joining from the left or right ahead and
Diagram 872.1 - The number of traffic lanes reduces ahead.

I can't recall if the permanent merge ones were ever prescribed, although the temporary ones, Diagram 7252 and 7253 were, in 1994. The permanent signs were shown in a TA or TD, the precise number and title of which escapes me and I can't be bothered to look up if it's still current. Bomag might know. Where there might be a saving for them I'm not sure but TSRGD 2016 revokes TSRGD 2002, which kills off all previous savings, so they might very well no longer be prescribed and should be replaced with Diagrams 508.1 and 509.1.

Where there is a temporary or altered merge situation, the permanent Diagrams 508.1 and 509.1 should be used if appropriate. The idea being that the triangular signs simply show the presence of the merge, without going to the faff of showing how many lanes there are - it should be pretty obvious to drivers anyway.

It's definitely not been seen in the current DMRB - thankfully, as those merge signs were utterly pointless. Given the permanent one nor the triangular merge sign were in the 1994 regs one can only presume a mistake had been made somewhere. 508.1 and 509.2 re-appeared in 2002 so I'd imagine the DMRB was revised not long after.

[Bryn666]

Edit - I think the permanent lane drop sign should now be to Diagram 877 (S11-2-22) possibly with the solid line bounded chevron marking as shown in S12-5-6 as appropriate. Such a sign would probably be wider than the old style lane drop designs. On motorways, the height of the sign should be 1800mm and look similar to the last image shown on the link below but mirrored (and without the two-headed arrow). Whether it would be needed, given that directional signing showing the lane drop would be present, either as verge mounted or gantry signs, would be a decision for the designer to make.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 2-p877.pdf

https://maps.app.goo.gl/PdcyUHT7dCEJaXn86 - this will have been designed just before the 1994 regs came in, so probably specially authorised. It's considerably more than 300 yds from this point to the exit, though.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/mrfttDC7wJJUo2wL7 - this one only appeared when the M60 smart motorway was done; it looks wrong and I don't see the point given the gantry signs do the same thing.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/RGGQmnkD6o3eimiF7 - another pre-1994 one I'd think, given the vintage of the M6 widening. Long since been replaced by a tiger-tail diverge.

[Conekicker]

...and then there's the standard clueless design error of installing countdown markers on the approach to a lane drop. Counting down to what exactly?

Top tip to any designers reading this - NEVER INSTALL COUNTDOWN MARKERS ON THE APPROACH TO A LANE DROP you clueless numpties

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.02720 ... &entry=ttu

[Bryn666]

...and then there's the standard clueless design error of installing countdown markers on the approach to a lane drop. Counting down to what exactly?

Top tip to any designers reading this - NEVER INSTALL COUNTDOWN MARKERS ON THE APPROACH TO A LANE DROP you clueless numpties

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.02720 ... &entry=ttu

It's easy to laugh at junior technicians for making these errors but who is signing off and approving their work? Senior managers. They need hauling over the coals if they're letting this stuff through. Every mistake has been designed, checked, approved, and installed, yet nobody has flagged the error?

Roll on licensing for sign designers.

[EthanL13]

No. The only ones prescribed in TSRGD these days, for lane gains and lane drops, are:

Diagrams 873 and 874 - Additional traffic joining from the left or right ahead and
Diagram 872.1 - The number of traffic lanes reduces ahead.

I can't recall if the permanent merge ones were ever prescribed, although the temporary ones, Diagram 7252 and 7253 were, in 1994. The permanent signs were shown in a TA or TD, the precise number and title of which escapes me and I can't be bothered to look up if it's still current. Bomag might know. Where there might be a saving for them I'm not sure but TSRGD 2016 revokes TSRGD 2002, which kills off all previous savings, so they might very well no longer be prescribed and should be replaced with Diagrams 508.1 and 509.1.

Where there is a temporary or altered merge situation, the permanent Diagrams 508.1 and 509.1 should be used if appropriate. The idea being that the triangular signs simply show the presence of the merge, without going to the faff of showing how many lanes there are - it should be pretty obvious to drivers anyway.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/PdcyUHT7dCEJaXn86 - this will have been designed just before the 1994 regs came in, so probably specially authorised. It's considerably more than 300 yds from this point to the exit, though.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/mrfttDC7wJJUo2wL7 - this one only appeared when the M60 smart motorway was done; it looks wrong and I don't see the point given the gantry signs do the same thing.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/RGGQmnkD6o3eimiF7 - another pre-1994 one I'd think, given the vintage of the M6 widening. Long since been replaced by a tiger-tail diverge.

Thanks both, I ask since it is similar to the situation in Ireland. Lane merges should only be signposted with the relevant warning signs, lane diverges should only be signposted with the relevant direction signs. But along the M50 and its approach roads you will see signs similar to the UK ones posted here.
These merge signs are only about 10 years old, when the flyover was completed..
Lane diverge, pointless with the lane-drop gantries.
Double lane diverge, same as above
Lane reduction, this sign should be used instead.
Totally non-standard merge sign
and this attempt to depict a tiger tail diverge..