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Owain wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 16:49
Wasn't it done as a kind of trial, in that they wanted to see how effective it would be before repeating it elsewhere? And that when it turned out not to be popular, it wasn't repeated?
I'm not against toll roads either, when doing them properly can enable the driver to cover hundreds of kilometres like this - the only real downside is that it can get a bit boring when there's nothing to do!
EDITED - typo
Both the M6Toll and the A14 planned ANPR tolls were also experiments about tolling elsewhere either new roads or putting tolls in on existing roads. Both Labour and the Tories (before they contracted Ukipitis) have been looking at tolls to fund new roads or improvements since the 1990s. Tolling goes down badly with the public though.
The France example is a good one, the original legislation said tolls were temporary. That was removed by successive legislation, and France has some of Europe's higher per km toll rates. Plus some French autoroutes can be empty in comparison to UK motorways in similar places, not the A1, A6, A7 and A10 though.
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The French network is odd, because east west routes like the Angers-Vierzon A85 have carried less traffic than the A9 in Scotland in parts making you wonder how they pay for themselves.
Then at the opposite end you have the dreaded A7 through the Rhône valley which they had plans to widen to D5 or a New Jersey Turnpike car/HGV division of carriageways (since cancelled as too expensive and in conflict with the LGV Sud).
France being shaped like a hexagon but heavily mountainous makes it harder to draw comparisons with how our spinal network works.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
One of the best tolled networks I've seen is in Chicago. Firstly, the tolls are cheap in comparison to Europe. The last time I used it the tolls were $1 and there were about three toll booths between the airport and Indiana. Secondly, there's no easy way to shunpike as the alternatives are surface streets or the heavily congested I-90 through the city centre. Then again, with the tolls so cheap there's no financial saving in doing so.
I suppose this is the difference between state owned toll roads and privately owned ones where the latter is for the benefit of shareholders. The M6 Toll could have been so different had it been state owned and the tolls set at levels which make paying the toll more attractive compared to sitting in traffic. At one point there was consideration for building the M6 Toll as a publicly owned toll road but the government of the day would see it as an embarrassing u-turn as it had already invited bids from the private sector.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir? Big and complex.
Truvelo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 19:52
I suppose this is the difference between state owned toll roads and privately owned ones where the latter is for the benefit of shareholders. The M6 Toll could have been so different had it been state owned and the tolls set at levels which make paying the toll more attractive compared to sitting in traffic. At one point there was consideration for building the M6 Toll as a publicly owned toll road but the government of the day would see it as an embarrassing u-turn as it had already invited bids from the private sector.
Precisely. It is a classic case of the extent to which public services and utilities in the UK have been subjected to extreme financialisation to the detriment of service to customers.
A whole range of privatised utilities and projects in the UK are run as highly leveraged asset-stripping opportunities for investors, and their original/ostensible purposes - e.g. providing water and getting rid of sewage, running trains - now are of merely subsidiary/incidental importance, a classic case of the tail wagging the dog.
As any normal person who is not a Tory politician or a greedy financier can see, the purpose of the M6 Toll should be to draw traffic from the M6 mainline, not to provide a nicely packaged investment structured to deliver a certain target rate of return for a foreign hedge fund or pension fund. The tolls should be set accordingly - but it doesn't seem to be run that way.
roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 20:31... the purpose of the M6 Toll should be to draw traffic from the M6 mainline, not to provide a nicely packaged investment structured to deliver a certain target rate of return for a foreign hedge fund or pension fund. The tolls should be set accordingly - but it doesn't seem to be run that way.
You could perhaps argue that the toll should be on the M6 through Birmingham, and that the M6 Toll should be free.
As long as the contract with a private concessionaire is fair to both parties there should not necessarily be a problem. The problem is when the privatised or private companies can rack up the tolls above inflation. This has been the complaint in France where the companies can raise tolls by inflation plus since they were privatised about a decade a go.
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exiled wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 20:50
As long as the contract with a private concessionaire is fair to both parties there should not necessarily be a problem. The problem is when the privatised or private companies can rack up the tolls above inflation. This has been the complaint in France where the companies can raise tolls by inflation plus since they were privatised about a decade a go.
The problem is a different one.
Of course the tolls are regulated but the toll level that would get the right amount of traffic off the mainline and the toll that maximises the returns within the regulatory framework for investors who have no interest in relieving traffic levels in and around Birmingham are two completely different things.
I think that keeping the toll increases to inflation, while containing the problem, is a fairly trivial aspect if the whole system was misconceived in the first place.
roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 20:31... the purpose of the M6 Toll should be to draw traffic from the M6 mainline, not to provide a nicely packaged investment structured to deliver a certain target rate of return for a foreign hedge fund or pension fund. The tolls should be set accordingly - but it doesn't seem to be run that way.
You could perhaps argue that the toll should be on the M6 through Birmingham, and that the M6 Toll should be free.
At the very least, those overhead signs that tell drivers whether the M6 Toll is clear should be changed to say whether the M6 mainline is clear instead!
roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 20:31... the purpose of the M6 Toll should be to draw traffic from the M6 mainline, not to provide a nicely packaged investment structured to deliver a certain target rate of return for a foreign hedge fund or pension fund. The tolls should be set accordingly - but it doesn't seem to be run that way.
You could perhaps argue that the toll should be on the M6 through Birmingham, and that the M6 Toll should be free.
At the very least, those overhead signs that tell drivers whether the M6 Toll is clear should be changed to say whether the M6 mainline is clear instead!
They do. If they don’t say the M6 is congested, the M6 is clear.
Make poetry history.
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exiled wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 20:50
As long as the contract with a private concessionaire is fair to both parties there should not necessarily be a problem. The problem is when the privatised or private companies can rack up the tolls above inflation. This has been the complaint in France where the companies can raise tolls by inflation plus since they were privatised about a decade a go.
The problem is a different one.
Of course the tolls are regulated but the toll level that would get the right amount of traffic off the mainline and the toll that maximises the returns within the regulatory framework for investors who have no interest in relieving traffic levels in and around Birmingham are two completely different things.
I think that keeping the toll increases to inflation, while containing the problem, is a fairly trivial aspect if the whole system was misconceived in the first place.
It comes back to the only real equivalents of the M6Toll in Europe are the Radiales around Madrid. Which duplicate rather than add to the road network, and often add nothing more as the free alternative is flowing at speed, and is of course free. Head to Madrid on a quiet Sunday from the south, and the choice is the R-4 which costs money and is longer, or the A-4 which is free and shorter.
Highways England or whatever it is called today want people to use the M6Toll, the operators want a single car a day paying £5 million. As a tolling method, again like the Radiales, it does not really work as it does not augment the system. It is a paid for extra that works only part of the time.
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Truvelo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 19:52
I suppose this is the difference between state owned toll roads and privately owned ones where the latter is for the benefit of shareholders. The M6 Toll could have been so different had it been state owned and the tolls set at levels which make paying the toll more attractive compared to sitting in traffic. At one point there was consideration for building the M6 Toll as a publicly owned toll road but the government of the day would see it as an embarrassing u-turn as it had already invited bids from the private sector.
Precisely. It is a classic case of the extent to which public services and utilities in the UK have been subjected to extreme financialisation to the detriment of service to customers.
The first (modern) toll roads in Australia were government-owned and government-managed. This included Melbourne's 1970's Westgate Bridge, where the tolls were soon abolished by an incoming Labor government.
Most recent additions have been private ventures, often with disastrous early results for investors, though advantageous for users and the general traffic situation. Currently, Transurban is the major operator, with almost a monopoly in Sydney. They're universally considered to be too expensive, and the NSW government provides some subsidies. Toll increases are regulated, and trip-caps apply.
Melbourne is constructing two major new toll motorways. Westgate Tunnel was an unsolicited (how "unsolicited" ?!) proposal from Transurban, displacing a pathetically-poor non-motorway alternative that was being promoted by the state government. It will be a useful road, and probably profitable, even though it doesn't address Melbourne's most pressing need: a second E-W link across the city. That is presently bogged-down in politics.
The second Melbourne project is the N.E. Link, widely acknowledged to be required. It was specified by the government and put out to tender. Transurban declined to bid. Private involvement will end after construction, and a new, Victorian government 'Tolling Authority' will run it.
I'm not sure of this, but I think Sydney's under-construction Western Harbour Tunnel will also be government-operated. So we're coming full circle. Interesting times.
Last edited by Peter Freeman on Sun Dec 24, 2023 04:47, edited 1 time in total.
You could perhaps argue that the toll should be on the M6 through Birmingham, and that the M6 Toll should be free.
At the very least, those overhead signs that tell drivers whether the M6 Toll is clear should be changed to say whether the M6 mainline is clear instead!
They do. If they don’t say the M6 is congested, the M6 is clear.
I see what you are saying and obviously it probably works for regular users but it’s one of those ‘nudge’ things. The way it works at the moment is as a sort of advert for the M6Toll, whereas switching the emphasis the other around would encourage and maximise the use of the free option. If I had to guess, I suspect the way it’s set up at the moment is/was insisted on by the operator.
exiled wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 21:57
It comes back to the only real equivalents of the M6Toll in Europe are the Radiales around Madrid. Which duplicate rather than add to the road network, and often add nothing more as the free alternative is flowing at speed, and is of course free. Head to Madrid on a quiet Sunday from the south, and the choice is the R-4 which costs money and is longer, or the A-4 which is free and shorter.
Highways England or whatever it is called today want people to use the M6Toll, the operators want a single car a day paying £5 million. As a tolling method, again like the Radiales, it does not really work as it does not augment the system. It is a paid for extra that works only part of the time.
The M6 Toll is carrying 50,000 vehicles a day that would otherwise be on either the M6 or A5, it was built because congestion there was very bad, even today the A5 is carrying 30,000 vehicles per day. In short its a nice little earner. The people who want road users to use the M6 Toll are of course Macquarie Infrastructure Group which is an Australian company. In short much the same situation exists as around Madrid and I recall there were rather a lot of toll roads in France when I drove from Calais to Switzerland and Italy. Then there is the vignette you need if you want to use Swiss motorways.
exiled wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 21:57
It comes back to the only real equivalents of the M6Toll in Europe are the Radiales around Madrid. Which duplicate rather than add to the road network, and often add nothing more as the free alternative is flowing at speed, and is of course free. Head to Madrid on a quiet Sunday from the south, and the choice is the R-4 which costs money and is longer, or the A-4 which is free and shorter.
Highways England or whatever it is called today want people to use the M6Toll, the operators want a single car a day paying £5 million. As a tolling method, again like the Radiales, it does not really work as it does not augment the system. It is a paid for extra that works only part of the time.
The M6 Toll is carrying 50,000 vehicles a day that would otherwise be on either the M6 or A5, it was built because congestion there was very bad, even today the A5 is carrying 30,000 vehicles per day. In short its a nice little earner. The people who want road users to use the M6 Toll are of course Macquarie Infrastructure Group which is an Australian company. In short much the same situation exists as around Madrid and I recall there were rather a lot of toll roads in France when I drove from Calais to Switzerland and Italy. Then there is the vignette you need if you want to use Swiss motorways.
You cannot compare the M6Toll with the French and Italian systems which are tolled networks without much more of a free state operated network. The Swiss system is not comparable either due to the vignette system which is a one off annual payment not a pay to drive each and every time. That is why I said the M6Toll is only really comparable with the Radiales because they are the only main system of tolled motorways around a large city in Europe and like the M6Toll they duplicate a free network and like the M6Toll are often not worth the extra payment.
As for shadow tolls, again not comparable as as a motorist you do not pay. I drive on one when I go into the office, the money does not come out of my wallet directly it goes via the Scottish Government from my taxes.
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I took this photo in 2005 showing the prices at the time. Nowadays it would seem quite reasonable for cars to pay £3.50 during the day and lorries £7. Now they pay over twice the amount. For some reason vans and lorries paid the same then.
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Truvelo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 19:44
I took this photo in 2005 showing the prices at the time. Nowadays it would seem quite reasonable for cars to pay £3.50 during the day and lorries £7. Now they pay over twice the amount. For some reason vans and lorries paid the same then.
It's currently £8.90 for cars travelling the full length of the M6 Toll - and no discount for travelling at night either.
What is interesting is that bikes appeared to be free back in 2005 whereas they're now £4.30 per trip.
There are plenty of people who are willing to pay that amount. Norton Canes services was absolutely heaving on Saturday!
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I travelled on the M6 before the toll bit opened, but since moving to Kent in 2005, I've had no real reason to use the road. It doesn't connect well with the M54, and any points north are probably better served by the A50 or A66. Plus now I live next to a major regional rail terminal, I'd need a very good reason to have to drive that far.
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