What was the A13 like before 1998/1999?

[qwertyK]

Re my point though were there ever plans to make the upgraded A13 a motorway at least between Dagenham and the M25? In all honety it could probably be a motorway for most its length barring a set of traffic lights at renwick road and a few side roads that happen to turn onto it.

Or were there ever plans to at leats improve the A12 within the M25 before an A13 upgrade?

[qwertyK]

I was also going to say it wasn';t until 1999 when the M11 link road open. That section of the A12 is also as good as the A13. Again it took forever for East London to get good infrastructure for its roads

[Phil]

I've always wondered though if its quicker to use the A12/M25/A13/M11 or whatever why is the A12 still a primary route from Brentwood to London and why don't they signpost London from the M25 junction and advise people to take that exit for London? Surely road signs should be advising people on the quickest route rather than the route with the fewest miles

Because the A13 or the M11 cannot cope were all the traffic bound for London to divert away from the urban A12 in addition to traffic that HAS to use the aforementioned routes.

Although those in the know (or those driving by Satnav) may divert away from the A12, the majority of traffic won't.

Similar tactics can be seen at Canning Town where traffic for Central London is consistently directed to stay on the A13 and not the Limehouse Link Tunnel / The Highway despite that being better quality.

What you need to appreciate is that funnelling everyone down one single link (even if its high quality) means said link not only has to be very big, it also becomes a week point in the network - it gets shut and you are stuffed! The UK may well have a large D3 / D4 motorway network but because of the lack of investment in parallel routes any disruption quickly causes chaos where as other more enlightened countries whose motorways may be narrower will actually perform better as there are other good quality options available to get round said blockages.

[qwertyK]

I've always wondered though if its quicker to use the A12/M25/A13/M11 or whatever why is the A12 still a primary route from Brentwood to London and why don't they signpost London from the M25 junction and advise people to take that exit for London? Surely road signs should be advising people on the quickest route rather than the route with the fewest miles

Because the A13 or the M11 cannot cope were all the traffic bound for London to divert away from the urban A12 in addition to traffic that HAS to use the aforementioned routes.

Although those in the know (or those driving by Satnav) may divert away from the A12, the majority of traffic won't.

Similar tactics can be seen at Canning Town where traffic for Central London is consistently directed to stay on the A13 and not the Limehouse Link Tunnel / The Highway despite that being better quality.

What you need to appreciate is that funnelling everyone down one single link (even if its high quality) means said link not only has to be very big, it also becomes a week point in the network - it gets shut and you are stuffed! The UK may well have a large D3 / D4 motorway network but because of the lack of investment in parallel routes any disruption quickly causes chaos where as other more enlightened countries whose motorways may be narrower will actually perform better as there are other good quality options available to get round said blockages.

TBF though I don't know many who don't have satnavs given you can just use your phone. I can't imagine many on the section of the A12 within the M25 are heading for central London. Only usually if there's a major problem on the M25 and people can't access the M11 or A13.

It's a shame they never attempted to bypass at least some of the bottlenecks on the A12 like putting a flyover some of the at-grade junctions.

[Phil]

I've always wondered though if its quicker to use the A12/M25/A13/M11 or whatever why is the A12 still a primary route from Brentwood to London and why don't they signpost London from the M25 junction and advise people to take that exit for London? Surely road signs should be advising people on the quickest route rather than the route with the fewest miles

Because the A13 or the M11 cannot cope were all the traffic bound for London to divert away from the urban A12 in addition to traffic that HAS to use the aforementioned routes.

Although those in the know (or those driving by Satnav) may divert away from the A12, the majority of traffic won't.

Similar tactics can be seen at Canning Town where traffic for Central London is consistently directed to stay on the A13 and not the Limehouse Link Tunnel / The Highway despite that being better quality.

What you need to appreciate is that funnelling everyone down one single link (even if its high quality) means said link not only has to be very big, it also becomes a week point in the network - it gets shut and you are stuffed! The UK may well have a large D3 / D4 motorway network but because of the lack of investment in parallel routes any disruption quickly causes chaos where as other more enlightened countries whose motorways may be narrower will actually perform better as there are other good quality options available to get round said blockages.

TBF though I don't know many who don't have satnavs given you can just use your phone. I can't imagine many on the section of the A12 within the M25 are heading for central London. Only usually if there's a major problem on the M25 and people can't access the M11 or A13.

It's a shame they never attempted to bypass at least some of the bottlenecks on the A12 like putting a flyover some of the at-grade junctions.

[Note, when I said Sat-Nav, that doesn't just mean dedicated devices. In my book Google maps on my phone giving me directions is just as much a 'sat-nav' as a dedicated device]

But to return to the A12, unfortunately even with flyovers at junctions it won't fix the driveways and house fronting onto the road.

The 'best' road based solution is / was to by-pass the whole lot - and thats what was planned in the shape of the M12 as detailed here https://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/m12/ and here https://www.roads.org.uk/ringways/northern/m12

The only problem with this is that with both M11 and M12 traffic needing to head further in than Redbridge, what is the new build A12 through Leyton and the Blackwall tunnel northern approach would have needed to be even bigger to cope with the sudden inrush of traffic provided by two free flowing motorways plus of course said roads still do not lead into central London proper with turning off onto the S2 A11 or A13 needed to progress further into the centre. The A12 being as 'slow' as it is helps by throttling the volume of traffic arriving at Redbridge allowing the late 90s new build bit to flow better.

[Chris5156]

Interesting. I honestly find it hard to believe about how bad the A13 must have been compared to how it is now. I mean early 2000s for a road in London? That seems ridiculously late!

The A13 is just fortunate to be one of the roads that actually was improved. London has plenty of major radial routes that are far worse in standard today than the A13 was in the 1990s. The A23 is the classic example, but see also any of A2, A3, A10, A20, A316 within the North/South Circular. The A3 is particularly egregious, collapsing from a three-lane expressway to a suburban street in the space of about 300 yards, ready for a miles-long slog diagonally through Wandsworth, Battersea, Clapham and Kennington. The standard the A13 had reached by the 1990s is superior to that in every way!

Were there ever any plans for at least part of the section to be given motorway status or if there were earlier plans for a ringway link?

Sheesh, does nobody read CBRD Roads.org.uk any more?

There were never plans to designate the A13 as a motorway - the official plan, which was never followed through and was eventually replaced by the DBFO contract and other works described upthread, was to provide three lanes each way and grade separated junctions, from the East Cross Route out to Essex. That would have involved (eventually) the A13 Relief Road, an offline bypass from the North Circular to Dovers Corner, on-line dualling through Rainham, and then an off-line section north of Aveley stretching out to Essex. But that would have been all A13; the only motorway considered was a very vague and distant proposal to build a second motorway to Maplin Airport, which might have started at Dovers Corner as a continuation of the A13 Relief Road and might have been called the M13.

[qwertyK]

Interesting. I honestly find it hard to believe about how bad the A13 must have been compared to how it is now. I mean early 2000s for a road in London? That seems ridiculously late!

The A13 is just fortunate to be one of the roads that actually was improved. London has plenty of major radial routes that are far worse in standard today than the A13 was in the 1990s. The A23 is the classic example, but see also any of A2, A3, A10, A20, A316 within the North/South Circular. The A3 is particularly egregious, collapsing from a three-lane expressway to a suburban street in the space of about 300 yards, ready for a miles-long slog diagonally through Wandsworth, Battersea, Clapham and Kennington. The standard the A13 had reached by the 1990s is superior to that in every way!

Were there ever any plans for at least part of the section to be given motorway status or if there were earlier plans for a ringway link?

Sheesh, does nobody read CBRD Roads.org.uk any more?

There were never plans to designate the A13 as a motorway - the official plan, which was never followed through and was eventually replaced by the DBFO contract and other works described upthread, was to provide three lanes each way and grade separated junctions, from the East Cross Route out to Essex. That would have involved (eventually) the A13 Relief Road, an offline bypass from the North Circular to Dovers Corner, on-line dualling through Rainham, and then an off-line section north of Aveley stretching out to Essex. But that would have been all A13; the only motorway considered was a very vague and distant proposal to build a second motorway to Maplin Airport, which might have started at Dovers Corner as a continuation of the A13 Relief Road and might have been called the M13.

Yeah I guess so but then west London has the M4 and the A40 which are pretty good. The A10 does go down to a single carriageway I believe but then like the A12 it has the M1 and the M11. The M11 is the mots useful I guess as the M1 brings you far further out than where the A10 or M11 does.

[Scratchwood]

The A13 was curiously late to be upgraded when compared to other similar London arterial routes, but relatively easy as that part of London along the north bank of the Thames is pretty desolate. Hence HS1 taking a similar route out of London as well

Indeed East London is well catered for with the A13 and M11 routes to the M25, making it unnecessary to use the A12.

Unless you want to go to Chelmsford, Brentwood, Colchester, Ipswich, Felixtowe etc

Simon

Then you'd use the M11 and M25 to join the A12 at J28. Yes it's a longer route than if the "M12" had been built, but hardly that bad a diversion.

[Scratchwood]

Unless you want to go to Chelmsford, Brentwood, Colchester, Ipswich, Felixtowe etc

For which the route from Canary Wharf is A13 to Basildon then the A130 to Chelmsford, HQDC freeflow all the way, not a single signal in the stretch until you get to the A12 roundabout at Chelmsford. One roundabout to Ipswich. What's not to like ? I can get to Ipswich in just over an hour.

Brentwood is A13-M25. If for any reason that is blocked then A13-A406-M11-M25. Both of these are freeflow all the way. It's pretty cool having two separate freeflow routes to a place, no ?

Still, M25 is always problematic.

I've always wondered though if its quicker to use the A12/M25/A13/M11 or whatever why is the A12 still a primary route from Brentwood to London and why don't they signpost London from the M25 junction and advise people to take that exit for London? Surely road signs should be advising people on the quickest route rather than the route with the fewest miles

The section of the M25 between the M11 and A12 is very good, high quality D4M and not horrendously overloaded, unlike much of the M25. It's only the M25/A12 junction which lets the side down...

[roadphotos]

Does anyone have any pictures of the old Movers Lane Flyover. I remember when 4 lanes of traffic had to squeeze into 1 just after the A13/A406 junction. The traffic got so bad that it was eventually demolished and the underpass that we have today was built to replace it.

[roadtester]

I've been familiar with the A13 since 1977 when I used to live in Southend - the A13 was part of family trips by car to London and some trips further afield in those pre M25/Dartford Tunnel second bore days as well.

I can only concur with the people who have already said that the old Dagenham section was really horrible! The new piece of road is a vast improvement - in fact the whole A13 has improved out of all recognition in the last forty years or so. Back in 1977, there were only two bits of the entire length of the A13 that could broadly be described as anything approaching HQDC - the bit which I think is called the Pitsea bypass to the south of Pitsea/Basildon and the tiny fragment represented by the GSJ at Stanford-le-Hope. Now the whole thing is a pretty decent standard throughout.

I don't know the background to the Dagenham area upgrade in terms of the costs/benefits/business case that under-pinned it, but I'm guessing that one of the reasons it was revamped was to improve access to Ford's then-vast Dagenham plant. Sadly, by the time the new section of road was opened, final assembly of cars at the site had ended. The remaining stamping operations were closed a few years ago too. Now, as far as production is concerned, they're down to just the diesel engine plant, and who knows how long that will last? The whole operation is now just a shadow of its former self.

[Bryn666]

I don't know the background to the Dagenham area upgrade in terms of the costs/benefits/business case that under-pinned it, but I'm guessing that one of the reasons it was revamped was to improve access to Ford's then-vast Dagenham plant. Sadly, by the time the new section of road was opened, final assembly of cars at the site had ended. The remaining stamping operations were closed a few years ago too. Now, as far as production is concerned, they're down to just the diesel engine plant, and who knows how long that will last? The whole operation is now just a shadow of its former self.

Docklands, not Ford. The whole scheme was to have a direct route from the M25 to and from the Docklands. Partly also why the A12 was forced through.

[Phil]

I don't know the background to the Dagenham area upgrade in terms of the costs/benefits/business case that under-pinned it, but I'm guessing that one of the reasons it was revamped was to improve access to Ford's then-vast Dagenham plant. Sadly, by the time the new section of road was opened, final assembly of cars at the site had ended. The remaining stamping operations were closed a few years ago too. Now, as far as production is concerned, they're down to just the diesel engine plant, and who knows how long that will last? The whole operation is now just a shadow of its former self.

Docklands, not Ford. The whole scheme was to have a direct route from the M25 to and from the Docklands. Partly also why the A12 was forced through.

Which is kind of Ironic given the Docklands regeneration strategy switched from low density businesses (Billingsgate Fish Market being one of the few survivors of the early strategy) which could justifiably needed good road links to transport merchandise to high rise offices for bankers who are actually ideally suited to using public transport.

[Bryn666]

I don't know the background to the Dagenham area upgrade in terms of the costs/benefits/business case that under-pinned it, but I'm guessing that one of the reasons it was revamped was to improve access to Ford's then-vast Dagenham plant. Sadly, by the time the new section of road was opened, final assembly of cars at the site had ended. The remaining stamping operations were closed a few years ago too. Now, as far as production is concerned, they're down to just the diesel engine plant, and who knows how long that will last? The whole operation is now just a shadow of its former self.

Docklands, not Ford. The whole scheme was to have a direct route from the M25 to and from the Docklands. Partly also why the A12 was forced through.

Which is kind of Ironic given the Docklands regeneration strategy switched from low density businesses (Billingsgate Fish Market being one of the few survivors of the early strategy) which could justifiably needed good road links to transport merchandise to high rise offices for bankers who are actually ideally suited to using public transport.

Don't forget there's the Cabot Square shopping centre and the Dome, ExCeL, and so on, which attract volumes of traffic in their own right. Docklands is more than just Canada Square and the surrounding banker towers.

[qwertyK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuX1f4rHFwk watch from the 1:40 mark.
Shows the old Movers Lane flyover.
Before the 1.40 mark you can also see the A102(M).

[Owain]

I have a vague memory of going to the Dome with school. The A13 was a complete dump before the upgrade west of the A406.

The wooden barriers down the middle where the tidal flow had been abandoned was a particular highlight along with a hopeful gantry saying "A13 FLYOVER" which had clearly been plastered over a variable sign of some sort.

The Dome?

That wasn't even an idea when my mum took me to the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich. The trip involved a bus ride along part of the A13, where I saw a yellow sign which I've never forgotten:

WE APOLOGISE FOR ANY DELAYS - THIS IS DUE TO NORMAL TRAFFIC FLOW.

[qwertyK]

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=66 ... 6731591915

This picture is of the A13 approaching Dovers Corner in Rainham in 1990. Note how "the North" and the A1 and M1 are signposted.

[KeithW]

A fair bit of the old A13 east of Dagenham still exists as the A1306 and varies from this -
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5296087 ... &entry=ttu

to this going past the Circus Tavern, I always knew that heading east for the Dartford Tunnel I was out of the worst of the traffic.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4863292 ... &entry=ttu

The Tavern was always a venue - perhaps that is what you were thinking of ?

This is the current list of events.
https://www.circustavern.org/events

[Glenn A]

I was last on the A13 in 1980 as far as the Blackwall Tunnel when it was mostly S2 and made its way through the heart of the East End. Interesting as a kid seeing the cockney place names for real.