The state of our road network

[ravenbluemoon]

Regarding an echo chamber, if the ranting is made in one of the local Facebook groups, these tend to be followed by local councillors. To that extent, submitting a form to a council website seems more the echo chamber.

One of our local (independent) councillors is quite active on social media, and a lot of his focus is on the state of the highways in his area of South Mansfield - any defects mentioned on his page/posts will normally get reported by him, and he will follow up on progress and praise/criticise if necessary. He's even helped on issues outside his patch, like the crater that appeared near me, or about the stupid Severn Trent rain garden schemes - mainly because most of the councillors (mainly Tory and Labour) are nowhere to be seen.

Most people wouldn't know FixMyStreet existed, but they'll usually know who their local MP or councillor is - so that's a way to get things sorted for a lot of folk.

[Nicola_Jayne]

Regarding an echo chamber, if the ranting is made in one of the local Facebook groups, these tend to be followed by local councillors. To that extent, submitting a form to a council website seems more the echo chamber.

One of our local (independent) councillors is quite active on social media, and a lot of his focus is on the state of the highways in his area of South Mansfield - any defects mentioned on his page/posts will normally get reported by him, and he will follow up on progress and praise/criticise if necessary. He's even helped on issues outside his patch, like the crater that appeared near me, or about the stupid Severn Trent rain garden schemes - mainly because most of the councillors (mainly Tory and Labour) are nowhere to be seen.

Most people wouldn't know FixMyStreet existed, but they'll usually know who their local MP or councillor is - so that's a way to get things sorted for a lot of folk.

would you like to explain what is 'stupid' about rain gardens and other surface water management ?

[traffic-light-man]

The obsession over using stone mastic asphalt hasn’t helped the decline either. I’ve seen a lot of stretches of road where stone mastic asphalt surfacing has been replaced more than once, and other stretches with hot rolled asphalt which have been there for over thirty years.

I was actually going to start a thread on this very topic.

I'm aware that carriageways on all roads of all classes appear to be deteriorating at an alarming rate at the moment (particularly by me, anyway), however one consistent that I feel is a newer phenomenon seems to be that SMA from perhaps 10 years ago, in a notably light grey or light brownish colour, appears to spontaneously develop long patches of rutting, and once it starts, it runs away at quite a staggering rate.

Some roads suffering from this are principal A roads and are becoming drivable at only a crawl in places.

[Runwell]

I see endless moaning on Facebook (other social media is available) about this pothole or that pothole but more often than not these people would rather moan in public than report the fault to their council.

In Staffordshire, before road repairs were outsourced, reporting a pothole via the council website would often see a repair the following day. Now outsourced, it's gradually got to the point that there's no point in reporting them any more - they are eventually assessed and always deemed to be non-urgent, and then never fixed.

So you can't blame people for moaning on social media.

The point is they are wailing into an empty echo chamber. The relevant authorities do not have people monitoring random social media pages in the remote expectation that a relevant issue arises.
In the time spent typing out their post, the user could have filled in the council's reporting form and submitted the report but that doesn't get the approbation of their peers and start "a conversation". It does bring the issue to the council's attention, however, which surely should be the point of the person's actions rather than getting "likes" for their posts.

Case in point being this one: https://twitter.com/YoYingers/status/17 ... JZQqg&s=19

No details of where it is, or not they have reported it via the official channels.

[RichardA35]

Case in point being this one: https://twitter.com/YoYingers/status/17 ... JZQqg&s=19

No details of where it is, or not they have reported it via the official channels.

They might equally as well have shouted out of the car window for the effect it would have. It would require the authority to contact them, interrogate them about when and where and then raise the same query the driver could or should have done initially on the reporting system.

[Glenn A]

I think poor road surfaces and speed bumps can trigger a car's TPMS to develop a low pressure warning. Earlier this year, my TPMS started to say a tyre was losing pressure, took the car to a reputable local tyre centre, they checked the tyres and found nothing wrong and said they've had several cases where a poor road surfacer or badly maintained speed bump has set off the TPMS.

[the cheesecake man]

This junction in (surprise, surprise) Sheffield takes my personal biscuit. It's bad enough in the GSV image, but it's been through two more winters since then. I had to negotiate it at under walking speed in my parents' car, which was already making some strange noises from the front suspension.

Of course this was resurfaced during The Great Resurfacing between 2012 and 2017. That so many roads are now in such terrible states suggests deeper issues. If the work is going to be done this badly, no amount of money will solve the problem.

The availability of a website for members of the public to report potholes does not diminish the council's responsibility to regularly inspect their own highways.

If only the council already had thousands of employees driving around emptying bins, issuing parking tickets, inspecting things etc, or just going to work.

[Barkstar]

I've mentioned it on other threads but not only are our local road falling to pieces - at least we can slow and dodge the worst of it. But the motorways are similarly afflicted.

The smart work on the M56 between the airport and the A556 has left the surface in a disgraceful state, with lanes one and two arguably unsuitable for high speed running. It is now a year or so since the job was supposedly complete. A lot of the damage appears to have been caused by the placement of the temporary concrete barriers. And it's similar across the motorway network. One real problem seems to be where just one lane is relaid and the joint fails opening up long narrow potholes. I ride a motorbike and there are plenty of places where there's a real danger that hitting one of these holes could cause an accident resulting in serious injury or death. Is it going to take a death to actually do something? Seems so

[SteveA30]

This is Hampshire's proposed cuts, as described in a consultation.

https://www.hants.gov.uk/aboutthecounci ... aintenance

The more cuts are made, the more the problem increases.....

[Runwell]

It's going to get to a stage where, unless any defects are a threat to life, they will be left until they reach that category. Garages around here are struggling to cope with demand, at least from the two I use.

[fras]

The material used for road surfaces was traditionally Hot Rolled Asphalt, and it is a very long-lived material, lasting 30 years or more. However its downside is road noise from traffic that gets worse as the surface wears. HRA is made up from bitumen, plus fine materials like sand and quarry fines, and has the key quality, (so necessary in our damp, wet, climate), of having a very low level of porosity, almost nil in good quality versions. However, if laid as made, it would be quite deadly to motor traffic because it gives no grip whatsoever. The "grip" is provided by rolling in, after the material has been laid but still hot, granite chippings coated with a thin layer of bitumen. These then bond into the asphalt layer using the heat retained in the asphalt after laying. So the laying of HRA is a skilled job, and has to be done very carefully to make sure the chippings bond into the HRA layer. The street outside my house is surfaced in HRA laid in 1988, and is still in excellent condition, although, as a cul-de-sac residential street, traffic levels are low. However, I could take you to see roads in and around Crewe with very heavy traffic laid in HRA in the 80s that are still in good condition, although most have had one surface dressing applied since, but that's all.
So what of SMA ?
Developed by the Germans, it is a matrix of stone chippings and bitumen with some fines and fibre filler added to prevent voids. So it is laid in a single pass, with no rolling-in of chippings, these being part of the material. German SMA has been very successful, and long lasting, in Germany, and is also far less noisy than HRA. Grip is provided by traffic wearing away the bitumen on the top to expose the chippings. This caused some to question its use due to the period required for traffic to wear away the top bitumen to expose the chippings that give the grip. This was the case in Ireland. But we all know the Irish weather is "It's raining", or "it's going to rain", so maybe this was a special case. Imposition of a speed limit for a period after laying it is one way of reducing the skid risk.
But what about British SMA ?
Well, in theory, it should be as good as the German stuff, right ? Well experience since its widespread introduction to the UK in the early 2000s is not one of success. It's introduction was forced by the UK government, after the Highways Agency ruled in 1998 that it was to be the only surfacing material on the Strategic Road Network for all renewals. All over my local county of Cheshire East, I could take you to sites relayed with SMA only a few years ago that are now breaking up. Good business for the contractors !

Another aspect of comparing HRA and SMA, is that with the heavy traffic of modern times, it is quicker to lay SMA than HRA, so road closures can be of shorter duration. This is because HRA needs two stages, (1) laying the HRA, and then (2) spreading and rolling in the chippings.

Anyway, have a read of this 2003 newletter by Mr C J Summers on Thin Layer Surfaces
https://web.archive.org/web/20080708213 ... AN2003.htm

[dereer]

The roads aren't any better here in the Republic of Ireland. There's a locally important road near me that's in an awful state and has been for years at this point. A local tyre company has taken the opportunity to put advertising posters on the road!

Another (less important) road that I use very regularly has a section that was worn and in need of repairing even 15 years ago. However, Monaghan County Council's preferred method of doing so is to put asphalt into the potholes, which predictably reappear after a month or so. Occasionally they'll throw down a new surface layer, but that doesn't help much either.

[fras]

I decided to do a bit of digging, (virtual, of course !!), on road maintenance and repair as it relates to my local council, Cheshire East. I managed to turn up the minutes of the Highways Committee, and found the latest minutes for the meeting in January. This meeting was specifically held to discuss and agree the Highways budget for 2024/25

This revealed that the budget for last year, (2023/24) for highway maintenance was £11 million, and with inflation etc, had been anticipated to increase by £5.8 million. However the overall CEC budget shortfall for the coming year was £12.7 million therefore savings had to be made, to limit the increase to £1.2 million.

A question was then asked in the committee, in terms of the well known, and on-going maintenance and repair issues, what would be an adequate budget. Reply was that the repairs backlog for last year was £180 million but was now close to £200 million.
Like all councils, Cheshire East has legal duties related to social services, and this is now 70% of the total budget. So all other council services have to fit into the remaining 30%.

As we all know, quite a few councils now have declared themselves bust. Cheshire East will avoid this, I think, but it is clear that the backlog of maintenance will remain, and the roads continue to deteriorate.

[Cryoraptor]

Here in Kent, which some unfamiliar with the area might consider to be quite a well-off county, the road network has essentially fallen apart since 2019. It is now getting particularly bad, massive potholes are being left until they're at the point where they are likely breaking people's suspensions. Over this winter the decline has been huge due to the extreme wetness, country roads have now significantly eroded under the pressure of already being substandard in the last couple of years, the horrifically wet October-March period has been the straw on the camel's back. I am no longer able to use them and I drive a 2009 Polo, best of luck to those who own smaller cars than that and decide to risk it. Before I gave up I had to slow down to 15-20mph at some sections to avoid damaging the car. The main roads aren't much better, the A26 around Tonbridge is starting to look like your average Serbian road. It doesn't help that there's no sufficient route from the M20 to Tunbridge wells and most of Sussex, I've no idea why the existing A228 corridor west of Seven Mile Lane was chosen for a dual carriageway, it's a terribly-placed bypass that only serves the Paddock Wood side and ignores Tonbridge entirely. I won't go too offtopic with that one though, the traffic situation south of the M25 is another kettle of fish that needs a much larger wholesale solution.

To get back to the point, with how badly local (and not-so local) routes have rotted away in the last few years round here, I'm surprised that a very serious accident hasn't occurred yet. If the situation isn't fixed soon, someone is going to lose their life due to the extremely poor standard of road quality we now have.

[wallmeerkat]

I was dropping my son to childcare in rural Co Down earlier and it struck me that I was driving like a video game swerving to avoid potholes.

The roads are maintained by Transport NI who are a government department.

Though at least the daylight is longer, I hit a particularly bad pothole one evening in heavy traffic as it was dark and oncoming lights meant I couldn't see it to avoid it.

[ROAD ROVER]

A patch of road here: 51.656958,0.120630
, has gone straight back to the eighteenth century.
Cars have to queue each way to traverse it as only one at a time can cross at walking pace.

[Conekicker]

In Sheffield, despite the Amey PFI contract, many roads are now developing potholes. Why? Well their contract started 12 years or so ago. They resurfaced the roads with a 35-40mm deep surface course inlay. The life of a surface course is around 10 years or so, hence the surface is now starting to fail and areas of surfacing 35-40mm deep are appearing at a frankly alarming rate.

This isn't helped by the fact that there are not insignificant areas of carriageway that had failed to their full depth prior to the PFI. I could be wrong but none, or very few, of them were fully dug out, receiving a 100mm inlay at best. Unsurprisingly, the failure has now worked it's way back up to the surface.

One can but hope Amey wont be repairing the failed surface areas by simply throwing some asphalt into the hole and hoping for the best.

[traffic-light-man]

In Sheffield, despite the Amey PFI contract, many roads are now developing potholes. Why? Well their contract started 12 years or so ago. They resurfaced the roads with a 35-40mm deep surface course inlay. The life of a surface course is around 10 years or so, hence the surface is now starting to fail and areas of surfacing 35-40mm deep are appearing at a frankly alarming rate.

That seems to provide some answers to my last post, too, and sounds like a sensible explanation of why it seems to be surfaces of a particular type and age developing a notable type of failure, which is those large shallow patches.

There a couple of sets of signals near me that perform poorly at the best of times, but the failure of the surface throughout the junctions has meant that, inevitably, some of the loops have failed which is leading to prolonged periods of congestion - I'm not sure it gets worse at the peak (probably to be expected if they routinely reach their maxes during peak), but it definitely takes much longer to recover afterwards and the unusual delays overnight are notable.

To the credit of the LA, failed loops here are usually picked up and dealt with reasonably swiftly, except these ones aren't being resolved as, rightly so, they won't recut in a surface that bad.

TL;DR - a result of the poor surface is that there's a knock-on to other things, too.

As an aside, I mentioned the M62 between J7 and J8 in this thread a while back for suffering similar symptoms. NH have finally got around to addressing some of this with lots of short sections (and some long) of resurfacing. However, what surprised me more was that they've also used a lot of the slurry/HFS-topped repairs, too, like those discussed in this thread. It'll be interesting to see how that holds up on a motorway with heavy flows. Presumably they aren't finished yet, there's still some terrible failures on the W/B approach to J8, particularly between the running lanes.

[skiddaw05]

It seems that surface dressing has fallen out of favour (NH don't use it at all), leaving SMA surfaces to deteriorate until it has to be taken off and replaced. A lot of people consider surface dressing to be a cheap and nasty alternative to 'proper' surfacing but you can eke quite a good few more years' life from the surface if you seal it up and stop water getting into the material

[the cheesecake man]

In Sheffield, despite the Amey PFI contract, many roads are now developing potholes. Why? Well their contract started 12 years or so ago. They resurfaced the roads with a 35-40mm deep surface course inlay. The life of a surface course is around 10 years or so, hence the surface is now starting to fail and areas of surfacing 35-40mm deep are appearing at a frankly alarming rate.

This isn't helped by the fact that there are not insignificant areas of carriageway that had failed to their full depth prior to the PFI. I could be wrong but none, or very few, of them were fully dug out, receiving a 100mm inlay at best. Unsurprisingly, the failure has now worked it's way back up to the surface.

IIRC the PFI contract required Amey to repair all roads to a decent standard within 5 years, which they did well, then maintain them to that standard for 20 years, which they are spectacularly failing to do. I wonder if the council is still paying them in full?

One can but hope Amey wont be repairing the failed surface areas by simply throwing some asphalt into the hole and hoping for the best.

They seem to be doing plenty of that as in the original example.