County Towns as Road Hubs

[jnty]

I was in a meeting yesterday where Transport Scotland were describing their plans to change the control destinations for Scottish trunk road signing, basically if the place isn't on the trunk road network it won't be a control destination going forward and some new places on newer trunk roads will. So, for example, St Andrews will be dropped but Skye will be added.

Might end one of the quirks between St Andrews and Edinburgh where northbound St Andrews is signed off the A92 for the A914, but southbound at Cupar Edinburgh is signed for the A91 to the north and join the A92 there.

I don't confess to fully understand signage but those aren't playing the role of control destinations, are they? I think control destinations are the 'forward' destinations that are signed repeatedly at junctions, appear on RCS and are used to help drivers understand which direction of a road they should join. If they're not allowed to sign St Andrews (or any non-trunk-road destination) anywhere on the A92 then it will be impossible to routefind to anywhere around the East Neuk as the A92 is the easternmost Fife trunk road.

All this begs the question whether St Andrew is actually used as a control destination that much anyway? I've often thought it's quite undersigned for its level of local importance, presumably due to its slightly 'dead end' location in the road network.

[Enceladus]

"Lough Ree, oh Lough Ree,
Where the three counties meet,
Longford, Westmeath and Roscommon ..."

Believe me, you don’t want to be on a boat on Lough Ree in a gale force 6 or worse. It is a very big lake with very open, exposed stretches of water and is fairly shallow with many nasty shoals and rocks in the middle of the lake and often extending far out from headlands. The waves can be very, very big.

My family had a cruiser on the Shannon in my 1980s childhood and a very rough crossing of the lake - which my dad was usually keen to do if we had to get back to the marina where our boat was moored in Athlone - was pretty terrifying for the rest of us!

[wallmeerkat]

I was in a meeting yesterday where Transport Scotland were describing their plans to change the control destinations for Scottish trunk road signing, basically if the place isn't on the trunk road network it won't be a control destination going forward and some new places on newer trunk roads will. So, for example, St Andrews will be dropped but Skye will be added.

Might end one of the quirks between St Andrews and Edinburgh where northbound St Andrews is signed off the A92 for the A914, but southbound at Cupar Edinburgh is signed for the A91 to the north and join the A92 there.

I don't confess to fully understand signage but those aren't playing the role of control destinations, are they? I think control destinations are the 'forward' destinations that are signed repeatedly at junctions, appear on RCS and are used to help drivers understand which direction of a road they should join. If they're not allowed to sign St Andrews (or any non-trunk-road destination) anywhere on the A92 then it will be impossible to routefind to anywhere around the East Neuk as the A92 is the easternmost Fife trunk road.

All this begs the question whether St Andrew is actually used as a control destination that much anyway? I've often thought it's quite undersigned for its level of local importance, presumably due to its slightly 'dead end' location in the road network.

Probably it's biggest signposting is from the M90 - https://www.google.com/maps/@56.2377972 ... ?entry=ttu

[jnty]

Might end one of the quirks between St Andrews and Edinburgh where northbound St Andrews is signed off the A92 for the A914, but southbound at Cupar Edinburgh is signed for the A91 to the north and join the A92 there.

I don't confess to fully understand signage but those aren't playing the role of control destinations, are they? I think control destinations are the 'forward' destinations that are signed repeatedly at junctions, appear on RCS and are used to help drivers understand which direction of a road they should join. If they're not allowed to sign St Andrews (or any non-trunk-road destination) anywhere on the A92 then it will be impossible to routefind to anywhere around the East Neuk as the A92 is the easternmost Fife trunk road.

All this begs the question whether St Andrew is actually used as a control destination that much anyway? I've often thought it's quite undersigned for its level of local importance, presumably due to its slightly 'dead end' location in the road network.

Probably it's biggest signposting is from the M90 - https://www.google.com/maps/@56.2377972 ... ?entry=ttu

Again though, does that count as a 'control destination'? The A91 east of there isn't trunk so apart from Bow of Fife roundabout where it crosses the A92 there are no 'trunk' destinations which can be reasonably signed.

[rhyds]

For most of North and Mid Wales' county towns their place as a road hub or not is generally one of topography. That said the larger settlements in various counties that would have been the obvious place for a county town would probably have grown around road or rail junctions.

Interestingly a number of Welsh county towns are rather anachronistic when looked at today. Denbighshire for example has, despite the name, always had Rhuthun as its county town. I'd imagine this was down to the fact that Rhuthun was the location of the Court buildings for the county as well as the Gaol, and when county councils were created it made sense to headquarter administration there.

Another interesting observance is how market towns, especially livestock market towns, became obvious road hubs without having to be the "county town". North Shropshire is a great example of this as there are no fewer than three "hubs" at Whitchurch, Oswestry and Shrewsbury which are obvious local roads hubs, with only one actually being a county town.

[Owain]

"Lough Ree, oh Lough Ree,
Where the three counties meet,
Longford, Westmeath and Roscommon ..."

"And where the Irish Grid and Irish Bonne projection have their true origin..."

What do you mean, I don't have a future as a songwriter?

The Three Counties meet in Whiteleaved Oak, surely?

Three Counties.jpg (12.91 KiB) Viewed 1324 times

[coneman]

The town of Dumfries fits this thread perfectly as a hub.
Prior to local government reorganisation in Scotland in 1974 it was the the county town of
Dumfriesshire and radiating off its town centre were the :-

A76 to Kilmarnock,
A701 to Edinburgh,
A709 to Lockerbie ,
A710 to Dalbeattie via the Solway Coast,
and the A 711 to Kirkudbright via Dalbeattie and Castle Douglas.

Not strictly in the spirit in the thread but could have an honourable mention would be of course
the A75 east to Gretna and West to Stranraer.

[dereer]

Here in Ireland, quite a few county towns would qualify for roads hub status - ...

It's not a particularly major road hub, but I reckon Monaghan's uncreatively-named county town qualifies too. The N2 meets the N12 and N54 at a roundabout on the edge of the town, with a variety of regional roads (although most are relatively unimportant) radiating from the town or just outside it.

[Enceladus]

Here in Ireland, quite a few county towns would qualify for roads hub status - ...

It's not a particularly major road hub, but I reckon Monaghan's uncreatively-named county town qualifies too. The N2 meets the N12 and N54 at a roundabout on the edge of the town, with a variety of regional roads (although most are relatively unimportant) radiating from the town or just outside it.

Yes indeed, I’d forgotten about Monaghan town. Its status as a roads hub is very apparent from the maps although due to the border with Northern Ireland, during the Troubles era its status as a hub was diminished somewhat.

Quite a few other Irish County towns are clear hubs too - Carlow, Tullamore, Mullingar, Roscommon town, Cavan, Castlebar and Ennis.

[varga]

Kendal,Lincoln, Stafford, York. Obviously
...
counter example would be Lancaster, because in Lancashire its Preston where all the major Highways meet

[Chris Bertram]

Kendal,Lincoln, Stafford, York. Obviously
...
counter example would be Lancaster, because in Lancashire its Preston where all the major Highways meet

However Preston is where Lancashire county hall is situated.

[varga]

Kendal,Lincoln, Stafford, York. Obviously
...
counter example would be Lancaster, because in Lancashire its Preston where all the major Highways meet

However Preston is where Lancashire county hall is situated.

in antiquity in that area,the main town was Penwortham.
Penwortham is next door to Preston, facing it from the Ribble's South bank. in the 11 th century was by miles the largest settlement in that region with a motte and Bailey castle to boot!
That goes some way to explaining Preston being a main road nucleus, I would have thought

Until the 12th century there was no Lancashire.
north of the Ribble, Lancashire was in Yorkshire, Westmorland too
south of it was called in the Domesday book ' 'inter ripam et mersam' ' ... Latin = between the Ribble and Mersey ... it was administratively part of Cheshire

[bothar]

Yes indeed, I’d forgotten about Monaghan town. Its status as a roads hub is very apparent from the maps although due to the border with Northern Ireland, during the Troubles era its status as a hub was diminished somewhat.

Yet Clones was more important in the railway days and there is a complete absence of a road of any importance from Monaghan to Enniskillen and points west.

Quite a few other Irish County towns are clear hubs too - Carlow, Tullamore, Mullingar, Roscommon town, Cavan, Castlebar and Ennis.

Yet Roscommon is the only county town that I can think of that has only national secondary routes connecting it to the rest of the country.

[Micro The Maniac]

Interestingly, when the French decided to change a few things in 1789, they originally planned that their new departements should each be squares with sides of 66.7 km.

While this may be true, on a point of order, the metre was only defined in 1799, and myriamètre (10,000m) was used until the mid 1800s. As such the kilometre is unlikely to have been the definitive unit used on 1789

[KeithW]

The trouble is that not only do County Boundaries change

This is the scheduled reminder that county boundaries haven't changed since 1844.

Local authorities are established, change boundaries, and disestablished and new ones put in their place. And all of those mentioned are local authorities, not counties.

Despite what the likes of Wikipedia will have you believe, the present North Yorkshire Council is a completely different entity to the previous North Yorkshire County Council.

Indeed but I recall very well that my home in Marton-In-Cleveland was in the North Riding of Yorkshire in 1974 and that we used to go to Northallerton or Great Ayton to access services such as the household waste recycling service. The boundaries since the last rearrangement are ludicrous. The main boundary between Middlesbrough and Redcar and Cleveland is this railway line.
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.5278004 ... &entry=ttu

Platform 1 is in Middlesbrough with Platform 2 in Redcar and Cleveland, to be fair I seem to recall that the boundary was tweaked so that North Ormesby remained in Middlesbrough. Then of course we have different postal boundaries so that while Teesport is within the boundaries of Redcar and Cleveland its postal address is.

Tees Dock Road
Middlesbrough
TS6 6TN

This is a good 5 miles away from any part of Middlesbrough, honestly you couldn't make this stuff up.

[Owain]

Interestingly, when the French decided to change a few things in 1789, they originally planned that their new departements should each be squares with sides of 66.7 km.

While this may be true, on a point of order, the metre was only defined in 1799, and myriamètre (10,000m) was used until the mid 1800s. As such the kilometre is unlikely to have been the definitive unit used on 1789

To be fair to Vierwielen, the French Revolution began in 1789, but had no specific end point. For instance, France was not declared a republic until 1792, and the king was not executed until 1793. It was only really after those events that the revolutionaries started to implement their radical new ideas.

I'd consider the revolution to have been 'ongoing' until at least 1799, when Napoleon seized power as First Consul, and you could argue that it didn't even end there; the French state's Concordat with the Catholic Church was not signed until 1801, and the Code Napoleon was not established until 1804. In much the same way, I've always considered the introduction of the metric system to be a part of the French revolutionary legacy.

[KeithW]

in antiquity in that area,the main town was Penwortham.
Penwortham is next door to Preston, facing it from the Ribble's South bank. in the 11 th century was by miles the largest settlement in that region with a motte and Bailey castle to boot!
That goes some way to explaining Preston being a main road nucleus, I would have thought

Until the 12th century there was no Lancashire.
north of the Ribble, Lancashire was in Yorkshire, Westmorland too
south of it was called in the Domesday book ' 'inter ripam et mersam' ' ... Latin = between the Ribble and Mersey ... it was administratively part of Cheshire

Preston Dock was the largest dock in the country in 1892, before the roads came the railways and ships were mainly importing cotton for the mills. Note that the main reason Preston Docks closed in 1979 was that it was just too small for the larger ships loaded with containers. This is why on the Tees the old docks at Middlesbrough and Stockton closed and trade went down the river to Teesport. The advent of shipping containers revolutionised the shipping business and the big winner was Felixstowe which was tiny grew like topsy.

Felixstowe Docks in 1948
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... 115_v_5083

Teesport 1953
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... /EAW050690

Teessport today
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Teesp ... &entry=ttu

[exiled]

Interestingly, when the French decided to change a few things in 1789, they originally planned that their new departements should each be squares with sides of 66.7 km.

While this may be true, on a point of order, the metre was only defined in 1799, and myriamètre (10,000m) was used until the mid 1800s. As such the kilometre is unlikely to have been the definitive unit used on 1789

To be fair to Vierwielen, the French Revolution began in 1789, but had no specific end point. For instance, France was not declared a republic until 1792, and the king was not executed until 1793. It was only really after those events that the revolutionaries started to implement their radical new ideas.

I'd consider the revolution to have been 'ongoing' until at least 1799, when Napoleon seized power as First Consul, and you could argue that it didn't even end there; the French state's Concordat with the Catholic Church was not signed until 1801, and the Code Napoleon was not established until 1804. In much the same,. I've always considered the introduction of the metric system to be part of the French revolutionary legacy.

The Revolution is generally agreed to have ended with the Coup of 18 brumaire year VIII (9th Nov 1799), though the Napoleonic imperial system would embed slowly. The official name of the state remained République Française for a while after Nap declared himself hereditary emperor.

It can also be argued that French history from then on through the 19th C was the Revolution's spin offs.

[Owain]

"The French Revolution is still too recent for us to assess its full impact" - I can never remember which historian is supposed to have said that!

Anyway, back on topic, there is no doubt that Paris is very much a road hub.

[exiled]

"The French Revolution is still too recent for us to assess its full impact"

- I can never remember which historian is supposed to have said that!

Apparently attributed to Mao, likely to be a myth, and likely to be referring to May 1968