NABRE

[J N Winkler]

The REALLY scary bit is that the quote was made by the City's Traffic Engineer

Does intimidated equate to "Drive carefully and sensibly around them"?
Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, why don't they just ask us how to design multi-lane roundabouts?

In fact, multilane roundabouts are designed to British criteria in the vast majority of American states that have tried them. My read is that a cub reporter was assigned to write the article because the city editor viewed it as a public service announcement. What the city engineer said is essentially an explanation of why the traffic department would have wanted the article to be published. I.M.O. that quote is not in its proper context and should not have been used.

[Conekicker]

How common is the true roundabout (as opposed to a traffic circle) in the US?

From what I can gather from the net, I'd hazard a guess at "not very but growing in use in a patchy fashion".

Again from what I've managed to gather from various sources, I get the impression that guide signing at US roundabouts seems to be in something of a developmental stage.

[Nic]

Well, I drove around the roundabouts this morning.

I've drawn a sketchet of the new situation. I drove it in both directions, heading from the 153 heading northbound, to North Access Rd, and in the other direction.

I my return visit, I noticed that, as I was driving anti-clockwise round the left hand roundabout, people were trying to access the roundabout to turn left, and heading clockwise on the roundabout.

[J N Winkler]

How common is the true roundabout (as opposed to a traffic circle) in the US?

From what I can gather from the net, I'd hazard a guess at "not very but growing in use in a patchy fashion".

This is more or less correct. I'd estimate that between one-third to one-half of the states have not yet experimented with roundabouts at all. But it is not at all difficult to find roundabouts in the early adopter states of Maryland, Kansas, Florida, and Colorado.

Roundabouts will probably never be as common as traffic signal installations, but on the other hand, they are now already much more common than the traditional traffic circles.

Again from what I've managed to gather from various sources, I get the impression that guide signing at US roundabouts seems to be in something of a developmental stage.

At the moment several states (including Maryland, Washington and Wisconsin) have published standards which call for diagrammatic signs. I know North Carolina has proposed diagrammatic signs for consideration as a standard, but I don't know if it has been adopted.

In general, however, even the states which specify diagrammatic signing for roundabouts don't provide instructions for designing the various symbols and arranging them with route markers and destination legend on the sign panel. In other words, there is not yet an equivalent to the parts of Chapter 7 which deal with roundabout direction signs. I have seen plans sets for roundabouts being circulated within a given state D.O.T. or even among various state D.O.T.s whenever a new roundabout is under consideration, partly to allow details such as sign designs to be either copied or adapted.

This is fairly typical of American roundabout diagrammatics--though, in a thread some months ago dealing with "road myths" about the U.S.A., I posted some British-like designs which are being experimented with in Arizona. They were promptly mistaken for an April Fool's joke.

[Bryn666]

I've noticed some places are trying to be a bit more like we are with regards to signing roundabouts, if the genuine British-style designs do get posted for real, please get a photo if so possible!

[J N Winkler]

I've noticed some places are trying to be a bit more like we are with regards to signing roundabouts, if the genuine British-style designs do get posted for real, please get a photo if so possible!

This is their approximate future location--the freeway right-of-way lies immediately to the east of the aqueduct which runs from N.W. to S.E.

The contract went to bid (if memory serves) last spring, so it should be under construction right now with a possibility of being finished in 2008 or even late 2007. I'll certainly try to check it out when I next go to Phoenix, though there's no telling what will happen with change orders etc.

[Conekicker]

I my return visit, I noticed that, as I was driving anti-clockwise round the left hand roundabout, people were trying to access the roundabout to turn left, and heading clockwise on the roundabout.

It sounds like they could use a worded educational sign "Drive anti-clockwise around the roundabout", until people get the hang of it, rather like our "New road layout ahead"-type sign, although they probably shouldn't have the 3 year month time limit on the signs life like we do?

Western Australia uses a diamond warning sign with a circular blob in the middle to represent the island and then curved arrows showing the traffic path(s) around it, so it's quite simple to come up with a suitable graphical sign - State/Federal bureacratic procedures and the US penchant for worded signing in general permitting.

Failing that a policeman standing there to inform folks of the error of their ways for a few days (and handing out tickets) should soon ram the message home.

Are there any "No left turn" signs just prior to the Yield markings or "One way" signs on the central island? There again, if the W2-6 sign is present on the approach, there's no real reason why folks are getting it wrong other than inattention.

I can't help but think that the designers haven't covered all the bases. Either that or the drivers are doing an impression of two short planks

[Nic]

To be fair, the signing at the moment is very bad, as they try to convert a crossroad junction to two roundabouts, and its not immediately clear where the road ends and the roundabout starts. The old roads are still there, straight through the middle of the roundabout. I'll see if I'm able to get piccies later

[Nic]

One thing I've discovered about the US Interstate system (The Motorway equivalent) is that there are quite a few differences.

1. There isn't the same 'any road that leads to one must be one' attitude, with one State Route, and one US Route joining interstates at Directional Ts.

2. Spurs must be linked to the Interstate they've come from. IE, the I-640 must come from the I-40

3. There are at grade junctions on the instates. For example, see this one in New Mexico.



[Aerial]

4. Interstates spend a lot of time split, and there are many access roads linking the two carriageways (although, not as public rights of way)

Maybe I'll add more as and when. Or you can too.

[PAHighways]

North American Board for Road Enthusiasts

Hello from the other side of the pond!

Hello from this side of the pond and welcome to my country.

Not much to report so far. I've been driving twice, and in a big SUV (Suburban Urban Vehicle) and Ive noticed that, whist the conception of everything being bigger is generally true, the local roads seem to cling to the car width a little, and with no safety area, just grass, or ditches by the side of the road, it gets a bit hairy.

It varies from state to state and even within states. Some state routes in Pennsylvania have shoulders and others do not, and even on the same route it will vary from shoulders to no shoulders.

Since you are in the states, I might recommend #roadgeek on ZUH.net where several of us road enthusiasts gather.

[PAHighways]

The exit number, as most people know, is given in miles from each state border, so you have no real concept of how many junctions you need to travel, but a very good idea f how far along an interstate you need to travel.

As long as you start at a state border. If you join the road somewhere along its length and don't know how far away the border is, it's not much use is it?

If you are going southbound or westbound, the mileages decrease so you'll know how far you are from the state line or end of the expressway.

And of course, as we've mentioned before, in America you have to pay to use "freeways" - as well as drive on the wrong side of the road AND have to do it at 50 mph (or have they done away with that yet?). Hmmph.

You pay to use only some like the Pennsylvania Turnpike, New York State Thruway, New Jersey Turnpike, etc. Technically you have to pay to use any road since gasoline taxes are used to fund construction and maintenance, so everytime you fill up you're paying for roads.

Funny, I don't think of it as the wrong side .

The nationally imposed 55 MPH limit was repealed in 1988, but some states such as mine kept it until the mid-1990s. In the Western US, there are 80 MPH speed limits and at one time Montana used "reasonable and prudent" as the daytime limit.

[Nic]

I've now managed to upload a few photos for your viewing pleasure.

You can find them here - http://www.23hq.com/NIc_A47/album/1675125

[billpa]

Some great pics there; keep 'em coming!
One of the roundabout warning signs looks like it was tilted a bit- looks square vs diamond-shaped.

[Crystal Walrein]

The exit number, as most people know, is given in miles from each state border, so you have no real concept of how many junctions you need to travel, but a very good idea f how far along an interstate you need to travel.

This is not the case in some states. New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Vermont, and New Hampshire invariably use sequential exit numbering like the UK. Delaware has distance numbering, but only on Delaware Route 1 and in that case by kilometres rather than miles. Florida had the sequential system for its toll roads until 1989 and its Interstate stretches until 2002. And until 2001 Maine and Pennsylvania also had invariable sequential numbering (and have since posted small signs denoting the previous exit numbers, but these are being phased out). Also, some odd toll roads (e.g. the New Jersey Turnpike) still use sequential numbering.

[J N Winkler]

This is not the case in some states. New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Vermont, and New Hampshire invariably use sequential exit numbering like the UK. Delaware has distance numbering, but only on Delaware Route 1 and in that case by kilometres rather than miles. Florida had the sequential system for its toll roads until 1989 and its Interstate stretches until 2002. And until 2001 Maine and Pennsylvania also had invariable sequential numbering (and have since posted small signs denoting the previous exit numbers, but these are being phased out). Also, some odd toll roads (e.g. the New Jersey Turnpike) still use sequential numbering.

All of this is true, and the MUTCD continues to list consecutive interchange numbering as an option. However, it is deprecated (a "Support" statement indicates distance-based numbering is preferred) and the long-term trend is in favor of conversion to distance-based numbering--many states which had consecutive numbering in the 1970's, such as Colorado, have converted to distance-based numbers.

New York State has published a draft MUTCD supplement and there is some speculation as to whether it will be used as a platform for converting to distance-based numbering. Arizona I-19 is another example of a road where exit numbering is based on kilometers rather than miles, and there is some question as to what will happen with those exit numbers if English units are reinstated on guide signs, as ADOT's Tucson district has been talking of doing.

Personally, I think consecutive numbering is likely to survive in niche locations, such as the Virginia exits on the Capital Beltway.

[mistral]

Nic,

This may be of interest to you.

Announcing the 2008 Knoxville, TN Road Meet, Saturday, October 11th

When: Saturday, October 11, 2008, 12 noon EDT
Where: Quaker Steak and Lube (yes apparently they do exist outside of PA), 5616 Merchants Center Blvd., Knoxville, TN

Directions: I-75 Exit 108 for Merchants Dr. (one exit north of 75/640/275 cloverstack interchange), turn heading west (L if northbound, R if southbound), turn R on Merchants Center Blvd.)

First off, I must reassure everyone that the UT Vols football team will be playing away on 10/11 at South Carolina, so getting to and from the Knoxville area shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Following the usual meeting, greeting, and eating that takes place at road meets, Travis Brickey, TDOT Region I Communications and Community Relations Officer, will lead us on an official guided tour of the SmartFix40 project which is ongoing in Downtown Knoxville. He has assured me that by the time this meet takes place, significant
progress will be made on this project, including new concrete pavement.

For those of you who are unaware, I-40 is closed in Downtown Knoxville between James White Parkway (Exit 388A) and Hall of Fame Drive (Exit 389) for a complete roadway rebuild. The closure began on May 1, 2008, and the finished roadway will reopen on June 30, 2009. I-40 through traffic is currently detoured onto I-640. TDOT has taken measures such as creating temporary third lanes along transitions between I-40 and I-640 to ensure that traffic flows as smoothly as possible during the detour period.

After our official tour of SmartFix40, we have a couple of options. We can check out the nearby stub ending of South Knox Blvd./James White Pkwy. on the other side of the Tennessee River, or we could check out the stub ending of I-140/TN 162 in Rockford, TN. No construction is active on the I-140 project, and the South Knox/James White ending is apparently permanent since TDOT has elected not to extend it any further due to NIMBY complaints.

I chose an autumn weekend to have this meet for several reasons. First, seeing the most possible progress on SmartFix40 as possible. Second, the weather should be more agreeable temperature wise, although no one can control what the clouds may bring. Third, the leaves may be starting to change color in the nearby mountains, so
folks may choose to stay overnight in the area on Saturday and spend Sunday cruising the East Tennessee mountain countryside viewing the pretty colors and scenery.

There are several hotel choices off the Merchants Dr. exit of I-75, such as Super 8, Econo Lodge, Clarion, Comfort Suites, and Days Inn. Other recommended options exist in West Knoxville off I-40/75 Exit 378 (Cedar Bluff Rd.). I personally recommend the La Quinta Inn off this exit. You may also choose to stay in the Seveirville/Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg area, but be advised that getting in and out of that area on most weekends can take quite a long time. Leaving a Gatlinburg hotel at 10 AM or earlier to make it to Knoxville at 12 noon may be necessary.

If you're within reasonable driving distance of Knoxville and you've never been to a road meet before, perhaps this may be your chance to attend one for the first time. Unlike what some other irrelevant people out on the west coast may tell you about what goes on at these events, road meets are a lot of fun. All are welcome, including those irrelevant west coasters. If you are interested in attending, or have any additional questions, please email me back and let me know.

If you're interested, I'll send you his email address.

[Yankee Guy]

and until 2001 Maine and Pennsylvania also had invariable sequential numbering (and have since posted small signs denoting the previous exit numbers, but these are being phased out). Also, some odd toll roads (e.g. the New Jersey Turnpike) still use sequential numbering.

Actually, Maine switched to Mileage based exits around 2004-2005. I went to college in Bangor, Maine and for the first year I got off at Exit 48 off I-95. When they switched to mileage, I was getting off at 185 now.

Mileage based exits makes it so much easier to determine how far you are from your exit.

[Nic]

Whilst driving round South Tennessee, I noted a new addition to my local Interstate - Colourful paint!

[Bryn666]

They do look neat, but I wonder if it's simple thermo or actually textured surfacing?

Either way, it'll look crap in 3 years if not maintained lovingly

[J N Winkler]

They do look neat, but I wonder if it's simple thermo or actually textured surfacing?

It has to be retroreflective, so textured surfacing is out. I think these in-road shields are either thermoplastic or patterned cold plastic depending on the conspicuity desired.