Here are brief summaries of the sections of road in England that are the subject of outstanding promises - I hope to do the same for the Scottish roads soon. Hopefully they will inspire the authors concerned, or if not they can be used as "holding versions" until a full version becomes available.
Guy
<HR>
A14 (Kettering - Catthorpe)
The final section of the A14 west of Kettering does not follow the route of any pre-existing road, but was built specifically to connect with the M1 and M6. After standard grade-separated junctions near Rothwell (A6), Kelmarsh (A508) and Naseby (A5199) it terminates at perhaps one of the worst-designed junctions on the trunk network, near Catthorpe in Leicestershire - the subject of extensive debates on SABRE and elsewhere. See here for discussion of current plans to improve it. A22 (London - Eastbourne) Starts on the A23 at Purley, probably further from Central London than any of the other "radial" two-digit roads - it's only two miles from the Surrey border. After crossing the border it becomes a dual carriageway bypassing Caterham and passing through junction 6 of the M25. From the A25 roundabout near Godstone it reverts to single carriageway, continuing southwards to Felbridge (near the Sussex border) where it's joined by the A264 from Crawley. It then turns south-eastwards through East Grinstead, where the A264 leaves for Tunbridge Wells, and then down through Ashdown Forest to Wych Cross, the junction with the A275 to Lewes. It meets the A272 near Maresfield, then absorbs the A26 for a few miles as a western bypass for Uckfield. The next major junction is with the A267 and A271, where the A22 turns right, forming a dual-carriageway bypass for Hailsham. At Polegate it crosses the A27, then proceeding into Eastbourne. The last couple of miles are non-primary and end on the A259 near the sea front. A41 (Whitchurch - Chester) I'm intrigued by the name "No Man's Heath", which is the first village on this stretch of road - can anyone enlighten me? The road crosses the A534 at Broxton, and I can say very little else about it. A43 (Cherwell Valley - Northampton) The A43 originally started just north of Oxford, but the first stage of its route has now been absorbed into the A34, with the next section (Weston-on-the-Green to Ardley) now downgraded to the B430 on account of the parallel M40. Thus the A43 now starts at M40 junction 10, adjacent to Cherwell Valley services. I remember this route as a slow single carriageway, but it appears to have been greatly improved in the last twenty years, with a dual-carriageway section running from the A421 junction to bypass Brackley (also meeting the A422), and another bypassing Towcester and crossing the A5 to run all the way to Northampton, with a new junction (15A) near Rothersthorpe Services on the M1. The intervening single-carriageway section around Syresham and Silverstone is also undergoing improvements. A58 (M62 J26 - Wetherby) A non-primary section, Whitehall Road, runs more or less straight from the M62 to the centre of Leeds, crossing the A651, A650 and A6110. The route then runs along the A58(M) Leeds Inner Ring Road before reverting to primary status as it leaves Leeds to the east (one section, Easterly Road, is dual carriageway). It crosses the A6120 ring road before heading out via Collingham (A659 junction), ending just south of Wetherby where it crosses the A661 and joins the A1. A60 (Loughborough - Doncaster) I presume this must once have been an important strategic route, running more or less south-north, though it's hard to imagine it so now - it's a hotch-potch of non-primary and primary sections and has largely been superseded by the M1.
Non-primary from the A6 at Loughborough, and across the A6006 near Rempstone. (On the southern approach to Nottingham it runs through a village called Bunny, would you believe!) Then across the A52 Clifton Boulevard into the centre of Nottingham. After crossing the Trent it becomes primary, and north of Nottingham the A614 branches off through Sherwood Forest. The next section runs to Mansfield, where it multiplexes with the inner ring road. Then on via Market Warsop to join the A57 west of Worksop. It leaves the A57 near Rhodesia (do they make these names up?), losing its primary status and running into Worksop itself. The last section meets the A634 at Oldcotes and the A631 at Tickhill, then bridges the A1(M) and M18 to end on the A630 in Doncaster. A61 (Hunslet-Harewood) Non-primary from M621 junction 7 to the centre of Leeds, then a primary dual carriageway (Scott Hall Road) leading out of the city as far as Alwoodley Gates. Rest is single carriageway.
A62 (Gildersome-Leeds) Gelderd Road, non-primary, running parallel to the M621 from M62 junction 27 to the centre of Leeds.
A68 (Corbridge - Darlington) Primary route running south from the A69, across the A695 and into County Durham. At Castleside the A692 leaves for Consett. Through Tow Law and across the A689, then to West Auckland where it crosses the A688. The Roman Dere Street (B6275) leaves from the right, then the road is joined by the A6072 to form a short dual-carriageway section on the approach to A1(M) junction 58 before ending in the centre of Darlington.
Outstanding A1-99 summaries (England)
Moderator: Site Management Team
<<A22 Starts on the A23 at Purley, probably further from Central London than any of the other "radial" two-digit roads>>
What about the A29 - this must count as radial but is entirely in Sussex
<<A60 .......runs through a village called Bunny, would you believe!.......................It leaves the A57 near Rhodesia (do they make these names up?)>>
A few miles west ofBunny is Gotham - as in Batman.
What about the A29 - this must count as radial but is entirely in Sussex
<<A60 .......runs through a village called Bunny, would you believe!.......................It leaves the A57 near Rhodesia (do they make these names up?)>>
A few miles west ofBunny is Gotham - as in Batman.
I can flesh out the A58 and A62, as I've been making use of these stretches recently when battling my way over to meetings at our Leeds office:
<A58 (M62 J26 - Wetherby)
A non-primary section, Whitehall Road, runs more or less straight from the M62 to the centre of Leeds, crossing the A651, A650 and A6110. The route then runs along the A58(M) Leeds Inner Ring Road before reverting to primary status as it leaves Leeds to the east (one section, Easterly Road, is dual carriageway). It crosses the A6120 ring road before heading out via Collingham (A659 junction), ending just south of Wetherby where it crosses the A661 and joins the A1.>
TheWhitehall Roadruns fromLeeds City railway station all the way out to the east of Hipperholme (near Halifax) - a distance of something like 15 miles, and it is quite impressive for a single stretch of road to havejust one name for so long (possible new thread on this??). I think there is now a 'missing link' to the SW of Leeds city centre where the distributor road from the M621 has sliced across the former A58, but it remains the Whitehall Rd either side.
I added some comments earlier in the year on the Prescot to M62 j26 thread, so I assume these have been, or will be, added to the 1-99 collection eventually.
To the east of the M62, as Guy states, the A58 runs pretty straight, and is actually a very good road, with just one 30 mph sectionbetween j26 and the centre of Leeds (through Birkenshaw I think). The rest is 40-50 all the way, even where there are shops, houses, factories - as I've said before, West Yorks (but not necessarily North or South Yorks) is pretty enlightened when it comes to speed limits.
I did once use the A58 to the NE of Leeds, and vaguely remember that it was fairly good as far as the ring road (despite some speed cameras on the dualled section), but the stretch out to Wetherby was pretty unmemorable.
I also think that there is a bit of a signing anomaly in Leeds - the A58 is signed "Wetherby" but if you want "The North (A1)" you are taken along the A64 to the new M1 extension. Fair enough, but wouldn't this also be the preferred route if you were going to Wetherby (which is on the A1 North), rather than the A58? Should the A58 north of Leeds now be downgraded?
<A62 (Gildersome-Leeds)
Gelderd Road, non-primary, running parallel to the M621 from M62 junction 27 to the centre of Leeds>
Even better than the A58. The A62 branches off from the Whitehall Road just south of Leeds centre (at the point where the M621 distributor road slices across the A58), quickly assumes a 40mph limit and heads for the ring road. This section is a bit neglected (terrible surface, lack of road markings, very old-fashioned streetlights), as the M621 has effectively superseded it. After the ring road, we are straight into the countryside (probably less than 2 miles from the centre of Leeds) and a very fast 60 mph section climbing steadily uphill towards Gildersome and junction 27 of the M62. Much of this section is a three laner (the authorities have probably forgotten this still exists given how under-used this road seems to be) and frankly, is a joy to use. Through Gildersome, the limit drops to 40, but this seems reasonable. We then hit the roundabout with the A650 and junction 27. And that's where my knowledge of the A62 ends.
Both the A58 and A62 are effectively nowlocal roads, as the M62 and M621 have long ago succeeded them. However, in rush hour (or when an accident has seized up the M62), these are nice alternatives. In particular, I have found that leaving Leeds at peak evening rush, the A62/A650/A58 can shave 10 minutes off the equivalent journey on the M621/M62 back to junction 26.
<A41 (Whitchurch - Chester)
I'm intrigued by the name "No Man's Heath", which is the first village on this stretch of road - can anyone enlighten me? The road crosses the A534 at Broxton, and I can say very little else about it.>
I'm sure I have posted something about the A41 generally somewhere before (possibly on Richard Green's site). As for this section in particular, I lived in Chester a few years ago, so know this section reasonably well. Bit of a drag frankly - although it is mostly 60mph once you get away from Chester and its commuter belt villages (or it was when I was down there!), it is popular with HGVs heading to the Midlands (more direct than heading east to the M6, then going south), farm vehicles and old dears in their Nissan Micras/Ford Kas, all pootling along at speeds often as high as 25mph.
Can't throw any light on No Man's Heath, although I think this may have been in the process of being bypassed when I lived down there - they were bypassing one of the villages somewhere along the way.
Finally, I think there is a distance sign just south of Chester (a fairlyrecent one too) which gives distances to Wolverhamptonand Birmingham (over 90 miles), even though this is essentially a local road to Whitchurch, and signed as such from Chester.
<A58 (M62 J26 - Wetherby)
A non-primary section, Whitehall Road, runs more or less straight from the M62 to the centre of Leeds, crossing the A651, A650 and A6110. The route then runs along the A58(M) Leeds Inner Ring Road before reverting to primary status as it leaves Leeds to the east (one section, Easterly Road, is dual carriageway). It crosses the A6120 ring road before heading out via Collingham (A659 junction), ending just south of Wetherby where it crosses the A661 and joins the A1.>
TheWhitehall Roadruns fromLeeds City railway station all the way out to the east of Hipperholme (near Halifax) - a distance of something like 15 miles, and it is quite impressive for a single stretch of road to havejust one name for so long (possible new thread on this??). I think there is now a 'missing link' to the SW of Leeds city centre where the distributor road from the M621 has sliced across the former A58, but it remains the Whitehall Rd either side.
I added some comments earlier in the year on the Prescot to M62 j26 thread, so I assume these have been, or will be, added to the 1-99 collection eventually.
To the east of the M62, as Guy states, the A58 runs pretty straight, and is actually a very good road, with just one 30 mph sectionbetween j26 and the centre of Leeds (through Birkenshaw I think). The rest is 40-50 all the way, even where there are shops, houses, factories - as I've said before, West Yorks (but not necessarily North or South Yorks) is pretty enlightened when it comes to speed limits.
I did once use the A58 to the NE of Leeds, and vaguely remember that it was fairly good as far as the ring road (despite some speed cameras on the dualled section), but the stretch out to Wetherby was pretty unmemorable.
I also think that there is a bit of a signing anomaly in Leeds - the A58 is signed "Wetherby" but if you want "The North (A1)" you are taken along the A64 to the new M1 extension. Fair enough, but wouldn't this also be the preferred route if you were going to Wetherby (which is on the A1 North), rather than the A58? Should the A58 north of Leeds now be downgraded?
<A62 (Gildersome-Leeds)
Gelderd Road, non-primary, running parallel to the M621 from M62 junction 27 to the centre of Leeds>
Even better than the A58. The A62 branches off from the Whitehall Road just south of Leeds centre (at the point where the M621 distributor road slices across the A58), quickly assumes a 40mph limit and heads for the ring road. This section is a bit neglected (terrible surface, lack of road markings, very old-fashioned streetlights), as the M621 has effectively superseded it. After the ring road, we are straight into the countryside (probably less than 2 miles from the centre of Leeds) and a very fast 60 mph section climbing steadily uphill towards Gildersome and junction 27 of the M62. Much of this section is a three laner (the authorities have probably forgotten this still exists given how under-used this road seems to be) and frankly, is a joy to use. Through Gildersome, the limit drops to 40, but this seems reasonable. We then hit the roundabout with the A650 and junction 27. And that's where my knowledge of the A62 ends.
Both the A58 and A62 are effectively nowlocal roads, as the M62 and M621 have long ago succeeded them. However, in rush hour (or when an accident has seized up the M62), these are nice alternatives. In particular, I have found that leaving Leeds at peak evening rush, the A62/A650/A58 can shave 10 minutes off the equivalent journey on the M621/M62 back to junction 26.
<A41 (Whitchurch - Chester)
I'm intrigued by the name "No Man's Heath", which is the first village on this stretch of road - can anyone enlighten me? The road crosses the A534 at Broxton, and I can say very little else about it.>
I'm sure I have posted something about the A41 generally somewhere before (possibly on Richard Green's site). As for this section in particular, I lived in Chester a few years ago, so know this section reasonably well. Bit of a drag frankly - although it is mostly 60mph once you get away from Chester and its commuter belt villages (or it was when I was down there!), it is popular with HGVs heading to the Midlands (more direct than heading east to the M6, then going south), farm vehicles and old dears in their Nissan Micras/Ford Kas, all pootling along at speeds often as high as 25mph.
Can't throw any light on No Man's Heath, although I think this may have been in the process of being bypassed when I lived down there - they were bypassing one of the villages somewhere along the way.
Finally, I think there is a distance sign just south of Chester (a fairlyrecent one too) which gives distances to Wolverhamptonand Birmingham (over 90 miles), even though this is essentially a local road to Whitchurch, and signed as such from Chester.
Hi there,
I saw your summary of the A22 for the outstanding A1-99 route descriptions. Being a regular user of this road I have put together the following description.
<P align=center>A22 ? Purley to Eastbourne<o:p></o:p> <P align=center><o:p></o:p>
The A22 starts its way south in Purley, South London at the junction with the A23, A2022 and the A235. Beginning as single lane carriageway it briefly upgrades to dual carriageway south of Whyteleafe. We soon cross the border into commuter county Surrey. There are a couple of sharp bends as the road snakes its way round the east of Caterham before reaching junction 6 of the M25. Here, the route bypasses the town of Godstone, once a bottleneck with the A25. The next roundabout is the junction with the non-primary A25 , from here we are back to single lane carriageway. The next roundabout, south of Godstone sees us back on the original road. After passing through South Godstone, the road becomes very straight as we follow the path of a Roman Road. As we cross the mini roundabout at the junction of the B2028, we get a good glimpse of the tall spire of the church at Newchapel.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The next junction is a traffic signal controlled t-junction with the A264 heading towards Crawley. The A264 shares the A22 until we reach the one-way system in East Grinstead. We also leave Surrey for West Sussex at this point. The A264 turns left towards Tunbridge Wells and further on we stay in the left hand lane to take the A22 around the town centre. The right hand lane will take you through the town centre along the original route. After a mile long drive through a very deep cutting we reach the roundabout which realigns us to the original route south of the town centre. It is downhill now, ? there is a sharp right bend and a sharp left bend as we go down,? it is through these bends that we enter East Sussex. At the bottom of the hill we arrive in the village of Forest Row, which sees the start of the Ashdown Forest. A mini=-roundabout sees the B2110 turn left towards Tunbridge Wells. Time to start climbing uphill as we snake our way through the northern part of the forest ? this is where you hope not to be stuck behind an HGV. After a set of traffic lights at an unclassified road junction, we reach the junction with the A275 towards Lewes.<o:p></o:p>
Another straight stretch of road, quite wide too allowing you to overtake the lumbering lorries. Watch out for deer crossing this part of the road in the forest ? they cause a lot of damage. A slight right bend takes us to the top of Ashdown Forest where on a good day you can see all the way to the South Downs in the distance. Downhill again before a short climb into the village of Nutley. Nutley sees the end of the Ashdown Forest as we arrive at the roundabout with the B2026 and the original route of the A22 through the village of Maresfield. We take the second exit onto the very wide single carriageway bypass of the village. The next roundabout merges us with the well known A272 towards Haywards Heath. Another wide stretch of road takes us to another roundabout where we say goodbye to the A272 where it merges with the northbound A26 to Tunbridge Wells. We turn right and the southbound A26 shares our route as we travel along the western bypass of Uckfield. This bypass is a narrow single carriageway road. The next roundabout allows you to turn left onto the B2102 to Uckfield. We continue on to the next roundabout where the A26 turns right and continues its journey south to Lewes and Newhaven. Onwards we go to the next roundabout where you can turn right for a round of golf at the East Sussex National Golf Club. A mile or so further on, a t-junction to the left sees the southern end of the original A22 through Uckfield. Uphill again and we pass through the village of Halland where we reach a roundabout at the junction of the B2192 towards Heathfield and Lewes. The next roundabout sees us joining the bypass around the village of East Hoathly ? a much needed bypass as the right angled bend in the middle of the village used to cause problems for our HGV friends. Another very wide bypass allowing for overtaking ? about 3 quarters of a mile long. We continue south through the village of Whitesmith before reaching the junction with the B2124 towards Lewes. A chance to fill up with petrol as we pass through Golden Cross and onto a nice straight stretch of road taking us to the Boship roundabout allowing us to join the A267 towards Tunbridge Wells or the A271 towards Bexhill and Hastings. We take the third exit onto the Hailsham bypass, and at long last, a dual carriageway. The first roundabout we meet allows you to turn left into an industrial estate to the east of Hailsham. At the top of the next hill you can turn right across the northbound carriageway onto an unclassified road taking you to the Arlington Speedway track. We then go downhill to the roundabout joining us to the important sounding non-primary A295 which is a two mile drive through Hailsham to the A271. Not sure why it has been given this three digit route number. We then arrive at the new very large roundabout with the A27, which we will now share for a short while along the brand new Polegate bypass. Had we continued on, we would have followed the original route of the A22 towards Eastbourne town centre now renumber A2270;.<o:p></o:p>
After a couple of miles, the next roundabout tells us to turn right onto the new route of the A22 into Eastbourne. The dual carriageway takes us a short distance across the flat plains of Stone Cross to arrive at a roundabout to the south of Hampden Park to the east of the town itself. The A22 arrives nowhere really ? instead we are invited to take the A2280 towards the coastal A259 road. Welcome to sunny Eastbourne.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I saw your summary of the A22 for the outstanding A1-99 route descriptions. Being a regular user of this road I have put together the following description.
<P align=center>A22 ? Purley to Eastbourne<o:p></o:p> <P align=center><o:p></o:p>
The A22 starts its way south in Purley, South London at the junction with the A23, A2022 and the A235. Beginning as single lane carriageway it briefly upgrades to dual carriageway south of Whyteleafe. We soon cross the border into commuter county Surrey. There are a couple of sharp bends as the road snakes its way round the east of Caterham before reaching junction 6 of the M25. Here, the route bypasses the town of Godstone, once a bottleneck with the A25. The next roundabout is the junction with the non-primary A25 , from here we are back to single lane carriageway. The next roundabout, south of Godstone sees us back on the original road. After passing through South Godstone, the road becomes very straight as we follow the path of a Roman Road. As we cross the mini roundabout at the junction of the B2028, we get a good glimpse of the tall spire of the church at Newchapel.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The next junction is a traffic signal controlled t-junction with the A264 heading towards Crawley. The A264 shares the A22 until we reach the one-way system in East Grinstead. We also leave Surrey for West Sussex at this point. The A264 turns left towards Tunbridge Wells and further on we stay in the left hand lane to take the A22 around the town centre. The right hand lane will take you through the town centre along the original route. After a mile long drive through a very deep cutting we reach the roundabout which realigns us to the original route south of the town centre. It is downhill now, ? there is a sharp right bend and a sharp left bend as we go down,? it is through these bends that we enter East Sussex. At the bottom of the hill we arrive in the village of Forest Row, which sees the start of the Ashdown Forest. A mini=-roundabout sees the B2110 turn left towards Tunbridge Wells. Time to start climbing uphill as we snake our way through the northern part of the forest ? this is where you hope not to be stuck behind an HGV. After a set of traffic lights at an unclassified road junction, we reach the junction with the A275 towards Lewes.<o:p></o:p>
Another straight stretch of road, quite wide too allowing you to overtake the lumbering lorries. Watch out for deer crossing this part of the road in the forest ? they cause a lot of damage. A slight right bend takes us to the top of Ashdown Forest where on a good day you can see all the way to the South Downs in the distance. Downhill again before a short climb into the village of Nutley. Nutley sees the end of the Ashdown Forest as we arrive at the roundabout with the B2026 and the original route of the A22 through the village of Maresfield. We take the second exit onto the very wide single carriageway bypass of the village. The next roundabout merges us with the well known A272 towards Haywards Heath. Another wide stretch of road takes us to another roundabout where we say goodbye to the A272 where it merges with the northbound A26 to Tunbridge Wells. We turn right and the southbound A26 shares our route as we travel along the western bypass of Uckfield. This bypass is a narrow single carriageway road. The next roundabout allows you to turn left onto the B2102 to Uckfield. We continue on to the next roundabout where the A26 turns right and continues its journey south to Lewes and Newhaven. Onwards we go to the next roundabout where you can turn right for a round of golf at the East Sussex National Golf Club. A mile or so further on, a t-junction to the left sees the southern end of the original A22 through Uckfield. Uphill again and we pass through the village of Halland where we reach a roundabout at the junction of the B2192 towards Heathfield and Lewes. The next roundabout sees us joining the bypass around the village of East Hoathly ? a much needed bypass as the right angled bend in the middle of the village used to cause problems for our HGV friends. Another very wide bypass allowing for overtaking ? about 3 quarters of a mile long. We continue south through the village of Whitesmith before reaching the junction with the B2124 towards Lewes. A chance to fill up with petrol as we pass through Golden Cross and onto a nice straight stretch of road taking us to the Boship roundabout allowing us to join the A267 towards Tunbridge Wells or the A271 towards Bexhill and Hastings. We take the third exit onto the Hailsham bypass, and at long last, a dual carriageway. The first roundabout we meet allows you to turn left into an industrial estate to the east of Hailsham. At the top of the next hill you can turn right across the northbound carriageway onto an unclassified road taking you to the Arlington Speedway track. We then go downhill to the roundabout joining us to the important sounding non-primary A295 which is a two mile drive through Hailsham to the A271. Not sure why it has been given this three digit route number. We then arrive at the new very large roundabout with the A27, which we will now share for a short while along the brand new Polegate bypass. Had we continued on, we would have followed the original route of the A22 towards Eastbourne town centre now renumber A2270;.<o:p></o:p>
After a couple of miles, the next roundabout tells us to turn right onto the new route of the A22 into Eastbourne. The dual carriageway takes us a short distance across the flat plains of Stone Cross to arrive at a roundabout to the south of Hampden Park to the east of the town itself. The A22 arrives nowhere really ? instead we are invited to take the A2280 towards the coastal A259 road. Welcome to sunny Eastbourne.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
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Simon A6(M)
- Member
- Posts: 388
- Joined: Sat May 04, 2002 21:55
- Location: Kent
Hello once again. Did part of the A60 last night, but the computer crashed and I lost it all. Did it again this morning via an attachment, then saw your 'holding version'. Consider me inspired! I'll finish it off asap. Looks as
if I don't need to do the A22 now...
Sorry not to have posted for a while: my browser wouldn't let me log in. It seems to be sorted out now.
Best wishes
Simon A6(M)
if I don't need to do the A22 now...
Sorry not to have posted for a while: my browser wouldn't let me log in. It seems to be sorted out now.
Best wishes
Simon A6(M)
Simon A6(M)
Simon A6(M): <<Sorry not to have posted for a while: my browser wouldn't let me log in. It seems to be sorted out now.>>
Welcome back! I remember the A60 (and the back roads through East Leake and Gotham) from my student days - occasional trips from Loughborough to Nottingham on some very old blue double decker buses - the name of the company escapes me but it may have been something like South Notts. The bus took about an hour to do the 12 or so miles.
Simon
Welcome back! I remember the A60 (and the back roads through East Leake and Gotham) from my student days - occasional trips from Loughborough to Nottingham on some very old blue double decker buses - the name of the company escapes me but it may have been something like South Notts. The bus took about an hour to do the 12 or so miles.
Simon
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-
Simon A6(M)
- Member
- Posts: 388
- Joined: Sat May 04, 2002 21:55
- Location: Kent
To Simon (from Simon) - thanks for your welcome back!
Mentioning Gotham, as one or two people have: there's the story of the "wise men of Gotham", who were so stupid as to believe that the moon had fallen into their village pond, and they were trying to get it out using fishing nets. The theory is that they weren't as daft as they seemed, and that it was a ruse to avoid being recruited into the army (because they appeared to be barmy). Anyroad,... (last word drags topic back to vaguely relevant vocabulary...)
Cheers
Simon.
Mentioning Gotham, as one or two people have: there's the story of the "wise men of Gotham", who were so stupid as to believe that the moon had fallen into their village pond, and they were trying to get it out using fishing nets. The theory is that they weren't as daft as they seemed, and that it was a ruse to avoid being recruited into the army (because they appeared to be barmy). Anyroad,... (last word drags topic back to vaguely relevant vocabulary...)
Cheers
Simon.
Simon A6(M)