I wondered as I drove home tonight off the M73 on to the A80, and then into local roads...
Can you be prosecuted for exceeding the speed limit for a type of road if the limit has not been notified by a sign?
My reasoning for this is as follows:
On the M73, the speed limit is 70 mph. As you come on to the A80 which is a Dual Carriageway, the speed limit is still 70 mph. You then stay on the slip road, and loop round to a small roundabout, but nowhere is there a National Speed Limit sign. Therefore there has been nothing to tell you to reduce your speed from 70 miles per hour...Not that you could probably do 70.
Interestingly, there are currently roadworks on the westbound stretch of the A8 approaching the M8 at Baillieston. There is a 40mph limit here. Now if you continue on to the M8, there is a 70mph sign, but if you take the slip to the Baillieston roundabout which leads on the M73 (70mph), again there is no sign, so theoretically, you should do 40mph all the way up the motorway!!
What do you all think...
Allan McPhail
Speed Limits and Signs
Moderator: Site Management Team
scotsguy: <<Can you be prosecuted for exceeding the speed limit for a type of road if the limit has not been notified by a sign?>>
The law is quite clear about speed limits. Where no limit is signed then the National Speed Limit applies unless the road is lit by a seriesof Street Lighting not more than 200 yards apart (I think the distance is around 200m....), in which case the speed limit is 30mph.
If the speed limit is different from 30mph on a lit road, or the National Speed Limit on an unlit road, then the limit must be signed with repeater signs every few hundred yards. The pricise spacing increases as the limit gets higher. The exception to the "lit roads are 30mph unless signed differently" rule is on motorways where the 70mph limit applies as a matter of course.
The National Speed Limit is 70mph ondual carriageways and 60mph on single carriageway. Therefore if you leave a motorway or dual carriageway and move onto a single carriageway road (and the NSL applies to both), the speed limit reduces to 60mph automatically - there is no requirement to sign this change.
<<Interestingly, there are currently roadworks on the westbound stretch of the A8 approaching the M8 at Baillieston. There is a 40mph limit here. Now if you continue on to the M8, there is a 70mph sign, but if you take the slip to the Baillieston roundabout which leads on the M73 (70mph), again there is no sign, so theoretically, you should do 40mph all the way up the motorway!!>>
In order for a speed limit to be enforced, then it must be backed by a traffic order made by the Highway Authority (except where it is NSL (or 30mph if lit)). The limit must also be properly signed. For roadworks, the limit will be as a result of a temporary traffic order which will only apply to a certain length of the carriageway (as defined in the Order). Also, Repeater signs have to be no more than a set distance apart, if that distance is exceeded then the limit is not properly signed and is not enforceable. Therefore, if there are roadworks with a temporary limit, but there is no NSL sign, or the repeaters run out, then youcannot be prosecuted for exceeding 40mph once the 40mph signing stops- so no, you don't have to do 40mph to the end of the motorway.
Before you do go and do 70mph through the road works, be aware that signs can be missed by motorists, therefore be very sure that the limit is not properly signed before trying to use this as a defence in court!
Simon
The law is quite clear about speed limits. Where no limit is signed then the National Speed Limit applies unless the road is lit by a seriesof Street Lighting not more than 200 yards apart (I think the distance is around 200m....), in which case the speed limit is 30mph.
If the speed limit is different from 30mph on a lit road, or the National Speed Limit on an unlit road, then the limit must be signed with repeater signs every few hundred yards. The pricise spacing increases as the limit gets higher. The exception to the "lit roads are 30mph unless signed differently" rule is on motorways where the 70mph limit applies as a matter of course.
The National Speed Limit is 70mph ondual carriageways and 60mph on single carriageway. Therefore if you leave a motorway or dual carriageway and move onto a single carriageway road (and the NSL applies to both), the speed limit reduces to 60mph automatically - there is no requirement to sign this change.
<<Interestingly, there are currently roadworks on the westbound stretch of the A8 approaching the M8 at Baillieston. There is a 40mph limit here. Now if you continue on to the M8, there is a 70mph sign, but if you take the slip to the Baillieston roundabout which leads on the M73 (70mph), again there is no sign, so theoretically, you should do 40mph all the way up the motorway!!>>
In order for a speed limit to be enforced, then it must be backed by a traffic order made by the Highway Authority (except where it is NSL (or 30mph if lit)). The limit must also be properly signed. For roadworks, the limit will be as a result of a temporary traffic order which will only apply to a certain length of the carriageway (as defined in the Order). Also, Repeater signs have to be no more than a set distance apart, if that distance is exceeded then the limit is not properly signed and is not enforceable. Therefore, if there are roadworks with a temporary limit, but there is no NSL sign, or the repeaters run out, then youcannot be prosecuted for exceeding 40mph once the 40mph signing stops- so no, you don't have to do 40mph to the end of the motorway.
Before you do go and do 70mph through the road works, be aware that signs can be missed by motorists, therefore be very sure that the limit is not properly signed before trying to use this as a defence in court!
Simon
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Another case is the M11 at Charlie Brown's. Southbound it's very clearly indicated that you're moving into a 50mph zone; but going northbound I don't recall seeing the derestriction signs....
Not that anyone actually travels at 50mph on the North Circular round that section anyway....
Chris.
Not that anyone actually travels at 50mph on the North Circular round that section anyway....
Chris.
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There are a few dual carriageway sections with different speed limits in different directions (the M4 between J4 and the elevated section is one such - 50 eastbound, 70 w/b). Are there any single carriageway sections with differential speed limits? If so if you do a U turn, where do you pass the new speed limit sign?
Here's a related problem. Is it legal to reverse along a one way street?If so, in which direction - against the flow, or with the flow (pointing the wrong way)?
Here's a related problem. Is it legal to reverse along a one way street?If so, in which direction - against the flow, or with the flow (pointing the wrong way)?
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PeterA5145
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<<Are there any single carriageway sections with differential speed limits? If so if you do a U turn, where do you pass the new speed limit sign?>>
Highly unlikely, I would say, as speed limit terminal signs need to be displayed on both sides of the carriageway.
However, you can never rule even the most unlikely things out entirely.
Regards,
Peter
Highly unlikely, I would say, as speed limit terminal signs need to be displayed on both sides of the carriageway.
However, you can never rule even the most unlikely things out entirely.
Regards,
Peter
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Allan
I'd just like to point out that the police can prosecute for careless or wreckless driving (whatever the speed limit is) with the later possibly envolving a prison sentence.The speed limit sign (although enforcable in law) is really just a guidethere's bound to be one or two missing here and there and I really wouldn't rely on signage errors to back you up when the police stop you.
Gazzaa
I'd just like to point out that the police can prosecute for careless or wreckless driving (whatever the speed limit is) with the later possibly envolving a prison sentence.The speed limit sign (although enforcable in law) is really just a guidethere's bound to be one or two missing here and there and I really wouldn't rely on signage errors to back you up when the police stop you.
Gazzaa
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PeterA5145
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<<The speed limit sign (although enforcable in law) is really just a guide there's bound to be one or two missing here and there and I really wouldn't rely on signage errors to back you up when the police stop you.>>
Not so. If a speed limit is not properly signed, it isn't enforceable (although obviously the NSL still is). There's plenty of case law to back this up.
See:
http://www.abd.org.uk/30.htm
If you should ever be accused of speeding, it's always worth checking that the applicable limit is correctly signed - as a surprising number aren't.
Regards,
Peter
Not so. If a speed limit is not properly signed, it isn't enforceable (although obviously the NSL still is). There's plenty of case law to back this up.
See:
http://www.abd.org.uk/30.htm
If you should ever be accused of speeding, it's always worth checking that the applicable limit is correctly signed - as a surprising number aren't.
Regards,
Peter
“The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.” – Robert A. Heinlein
Gazzaa: <<I'd just like to point out that the police can prosecute for careless or wreckless driving (whatever the speed limit is) with the later possibly envolving a prison sentence.>>
True, however to be properly convicted of a speeding offence only, then the signing must be correct. The thing is, very few of the British public are aware of what the correct signage for any given limit should be - therefore, this doesn't get challenged very often.
PeterE: <<If you should ever be accused of speeding, it's always worth checking that the applicable limit is correctly signed - as a surprising number aren't.>>
I have also come across an example where the limit is correctly signed, but the traffic order hasn't been made properly - again this is unenforceable.
Simon
True, however to be properly convicted of a speeding offence only, then the signing must be correct. The thing is, very few of the British public are aware of what the correct signage for any given limit should be - therefore, this doesn't get challenged very often.
PeterE: <<If you should ever be accused of speeding, it's always worth checking that the applicable limit is correctly signed - as a surprising number aren't.>>
I have also come across an example where the limit is correctly signed, but the traffic order hasn't been made properly - again this is unenforceable.
Simon
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