Map of England and Wales

Marcel · Post by **Marcel** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:35

Hi all,
I have a map of England and Wales and I would like to know how old it is.
I have scanned the cover
http://www.geocities.com/marcelmonterie/southeast.jpg
Some clues:
Road numbering is referred to as 'Ministry of Transport numbers' suggesting these were a novelty at the time.
The new A41 around Watford is there but as the A500. The A41 still has the old route (nowadays A411-A4140-A410).
Same for the A10 near Cheshunt: the new road is numberedA108.
Any ideas?
Marcel

Marcel · Post by **Marcel** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:46

Sorry, somehow the links do not work but I have added links on the main page of my website
www.monterie.com
Marcel

David D Miller · Post by **David D Miller** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 14:49

From the roads and numbering shown on the map,it's probablybetween 1938 and 1946. Although it's difficult to tell from the detail shown at this scale, I'd guess around 1938-9. However, most maps were notproperly updated during the war years, so it could be a much later reprint.

michaeltidd · Post by **michaeltidd** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 15:47

I'd agree with David - 1938 at the earliest; but quite possibly much later after the war

Graham · Post by **Graham** » Thu Sep 19, 2002 12:37

The map can immediately be dated as post-1936 (the date the Watford by-pass was renumbered A500), and isalmost certainly pre-1952 (the Watford by-pass had certainly been renumbered A41 by this date).
Regrettably, there were not many changes made to the road numbering system in the 1940s, so it is difficult to date maps from this period from the road numbers marked on it. Two roads that you might look at are the A604 Colchester to Harwich Road (some time between 1949 and 1951 this was re-routed so that it no longer ran through Manningtree), and the A2030 eastern route into Portsmouth (this road was upgraded from an unclassified road some time between 1946 and 1949).
Another way of dating maps from this period is to look at the price (this map has the price marked on the cover). I am no expert on Geographia maps, but a price of 4 shillings for cloth and 6/6 for dissected looks to be too high for the map to be pre-war; the map would have been competing with Ordnance Survey 10-inch maps whih werepriced at 3 shillings on cloth and (I think) 4 shillings dissected up until the war, but were increased shortly after it.
Graham

----------------------
Marcel wrote:

Hi all,
I have a map of England and Wales and I would like to know how old it is.

Marcel · Post by **Marcel** » Thu Sep 19, 2002 17:50

Thanks, the A604 bypasses Manningtree but the A2030 is not included
(NB both areas areon the scan!)
Marcel

David D Miller · Post by **David D Miller** » Thu Sep 19, 2002 22:23

The A604 never quite went through the centre of Manningtree, but the change after 1949 took it much further south than before. Marcel, your map clearly shows the A604 on its earlier route, i.e., prior to 1949.
From a quick glance at the Bartholomew atlases, the extension of the A604 number through to Parkeston Quay at Harwich occurred between 1935 and 1938.

I've put upa temporaryalbumof scansfrom various Ten-mile maps showing the numbering changes between Colchester and Harwich. The scans also show nicely how the style of the road map has changed over the decades. (Scans all under Crown Copyright NC/A7.)
Withtoday's announcement that the AA are to remove all but 21 of their roadside telephones, thechanging patternof AA and RAC phone boxes in the area may also be of interest.

Graham · Post by **Graham** » Fri Sep 20, 2002 12:20

The extension of the A604 to Harwich is another of those road number changes that can be narrowed down to somewhere between late 1935 and early 1936. There were a vast number of road changes carried out apparently at the same time, and what was unusual about this exercise was that many of these changes did not involve changing road classification - instead many "A" Roads were given different numbers. This was actually very rare (at least it was pre-war) - almost all other road number changes were because the classification of a road had been altered (usually upwards).
Here are a few other examples of chages that happened at this time;
- The extension of the A34 from Oxford to Manchester (including the deletion of the A42)
- The extension of the A9 to Inverness (including the deletion of the A88)
- The renumbering of the A417 and A419 north and west of Cirencester
- The extension of the A4 to Bristol
etc etc etc.
There was even a new issue of the Ministry of Transport map at the same time (1936 - although not all sheets were re-issued).
All this adds up to some sort of planned exercise. Has anyone reading this come across any publicity associated with this exercise (and can perhaps narrow the date down further)? It clearly happened, but I have not seen any reference to it anywhere.
Graham Cornell
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The A604 never quite went through the centre of Manningtree, but the change after 1949 took it much further south than before. Marcel, your map clearly shows the A604 on its earlier route, i.e., prior to 1949.
From a quick glance at the Bartholomew atlases, the extension of the A604 number through to Parkeston Quay at Harwich occurred between 1935 and 1938.

I've put upa temporaryalbumof scansfrom various Ten-mile maps showing the numbering changes between Colchester and Harwich. The scans also show nicely how the style of the road map has changed over the decades. (Scans all under Crown Copyright NC/A7.)
Withtoday's announcement that the AA are to remove all but 21 of their roadside telephones, thechanging patternof AA and RAC phone boxes in the area may also be of interest.

mnb20 · Post by **mnb20** » Fri Sep 20, 2002 18:05

David: << I've put up a temporary album of scans from various Ten-mile maps showing the numbering changes between Colchester and Harwich. The scans also show nicely how the style of the road map has changed over the decades. (Scans all under Crown Copyright NC/A7.) >>

Those are very interesting, not so much for the roads themselves (although the numbering changes are of some interest, certainly) but for the change in the styles of the map.

If you don't want to leave this album up permanently, could one of the roads websites find a permanent home for these scans?

David D Miller · Post by **David D Miller** » Fri Sep 20, 2002 19:13

mark: <<If you don't want to leave this album up permanently, could one of the roads websites find a permanent home for these scans?>>
Sorry, but the NC/A7 agreement wouldn't allow that. I've already pushed the limitssomewhat by using an album to 'attach' the scans to my message above.