The end of city centre Multistorey Carparks

[Bryn666]

As far as I am aware, there isn't a listed MSCP in the UK? The Architects Journal however, ran a recent article about Rupert Street in Bristol https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/new ... t-be-saved It doesn't look too much like an architectural gem to me though! However, the 20th Century Society seem to have other ideas.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-64725188
Bid to protect 'iconic' 1950's multi-storey car park in Bristol. Published 22 February 2023 Rupert Street car park in Bristol was described as "an iconic brutalist car park" by the 20th Century Society. By Jonathan Holmes BBC News

A group which campaigns to preserve modern buildings has applied to have a multi-storey car park in Bristol listed with Historic England. Rupert Street car park could be at risk of being demolished if plans for flats are submitted by developers Greystar.

But the 20th Century Society said the 1950s structure could be turned into a charging hub for electric cars. "We feel that this is an iconic brutalist car park," said 20th Century Society's Coco Whittaker. "It is an important example as it was the first in existence to have a continuous ramped floor - it's a classic," she added. The car park was built between December 1959 and October 1960. When it opened, the car park was hailed as revolutionary. It was the first of its kind to feature a continuous spiral parking ramp in the UK, which is half-a-mile long. Ms Whittaker said the building could be repurposed to add many more electric car charging points if it is saved."A clear opportunity now presents itself to adapt this innovative 20th century structure to provide a green and exciting solution to a very 21st century problem," she added.

It's because it's the first of its kind, but if retaining it is detrimental to the wider ambition of the city centre then it needs to go, regardless. We have this obsessive "Britain must be a theme park to the past" mentality, and it's why nothing ever works.

[Disgruntled Goat]

If anything in Manchester (and the Salford side of the Irwell) surface car parking feels like it is on the way out as the property developers scramble to build high density on every last plot of land available. In the recent past I can think of a couple of new multi storey car parks that have opened inside the ring road, although my memory of what was on the land before is a little hazy.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/DQxGLgTYPjPu3DF78 close to Salford Central

https://maps.app.goo.gl/DEkwNJvasx7jvAuWA at the new Circle Square development

[roadtester]

On the subject of listed multi-storey car parks, there's this one in Brewer Street in London.

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1063903

That said, it now appears to have been reimagined as a 'curated creative space' rather than continuing to be used as a car park.

https://brewerstreetcarpark.com/

[Jim606]

On the subject of listed multi-storey car parks, there's this one in Brewer Street in London.

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1063903

That said, it now appears to have been reimagined as a 'curated creative space' rather than continuing to be used as a car park.

https://brewerstreetcarpark.com/

Ah, this is the one I was think about. Thank you for posting. So, it might be an educated guess to say that this is the only listed MSCP in the UK, not unless anyone know any different?

[Jim606]

It's because it's the first of its kind, but if retaining it is detrimental to the wider ambition of the city centre then it needs to go, regardless. We have this obsessive "Britain must be a theme park to the past" mentality, and it's why nothing ever works.

I am inclined to agree, retro-fitting old buildings is generally a good idea, but how would you retrofit an old car park? A reimagined 'creative space' may work in an odd instance in central London, but elsewhere the land may be desperately needed for other purposes, i.e. housing, public realm improvements, changing shopping patterns etc. Perhaps, the local council Oldham (Tameside) had the right idea...

[roadtester]

I am inclined to agree, retro-fitting old buildings is generally a good idea, but how would you retrofit an old car park? A reimagined 'creative space' may work in an odd instance in central London, but elsewhere the land may be desperately needed for other purposes, i.e. housing, public realm improvements, changing shopping patterns etc.

Finding new uses for department stores and multi-storey car parks is one of the big challenges for reviving our struggling town centres. I think we should probably try to avoid demolition if they are structurally sound (embodied carbon) but as you say its quite hard to find alternative uses for these big buildings. With their large floor areas they seem far less adaptable than a small standard shop unit that can just be turned into yet another coffee shop.

There don't seem to be that many great ideas out there.

[Bryn666]

Bolton tried to reuse the Bow Street MSCP. It hasn't gone well.

[Pendlemac]

On the subject of listed multi-storey car parks, there's this one in Brewer Street in London.

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1063903

That said, it now appears to have been reimagined as a 'curated creative space' rather than continuing to be used as a car park.

https://brewerstreetcarpark.com/

Ah, this is the one I was think about. Thank you for posting. So, it might be an educated guess to say that this is the only listed MSCP in the UK, not unless anyone know any different?

There is an open MSCP above Preston Bus Station which presumably shares the Grade II listing of the bus station itself.

[rhyds]

I am inclined to agree, retro-fitting old buildings is generally a good idea, but how would you retrofit an old car park? A reimagined 'creative space' may work in an odd instance in central London, but elsewhere the land may be desperately needed for other purposes, i.e. housing, public realm improvements, changing shopping patterns etc.

Finding new uses for department stores and multi-storey car parks is one of the big challenges for reviving our struggling town centres. I think we should probably try to avoid demolition if they are structurally sound (embodied carbon) but as you say its quite hard to find alternative uses for these big buildings. With their large floor areas they seem far less adaptable than a small standard shop unit that can just be turned into yet another coffee shop.

There don't seem to be that many great ideas out there.

IIRC Cardiff's St David's centre has a Crazy/Mini Golf Course on one of its car park levels that's pretty busy.

[KeithW]

Finding new uses for department stores and multi-storey car parks is one of the big challenges for reviving our struggling town centres. I think we should probably try to avoid demolition if they are structurally sound (embodied carbon) but as you say its quite hard to find alternative uses for these big buildings. With their large floor areas they seem far less adaptable than a small standard shop unit that can just be turned into yet another coffee shop.

There don't seem to be that many great ideas out there.

The old (less than 10 years) Captain Cook Square shopping centre in Middlesbrough has been turned into an indoor leisure centre with activities including go karting, pool, karaoke, VR Arena , laser tag. It has food outlets and licensed bars all under the same roof.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/whats-on/ ... x-26312781
https://levelx.co.uk/middlesbrough/

[Alderpoint]

Finding new uses for department stores and multi-storey car parks is one of the big challenges for reviving our struggling town centres. I think we should probably try to avoid demolition if they are structurally sound (embodied carbon) but as you say its quite hard to find alternative uses for these big buildings. With their large floor areas they seem far less adaptable than a small standard shop unit that can just be turned into yet another coffee shop.

There don't seem to be that many great ideas out there.

IIRC Cardiff's St David's centre has a Crazy/Mini Golf Course on one of its car park levels that's pretty busy.

The former M&S here, anchor store of a large indoor shopping centre only built in 1988, together with half of two levels of the adjacent multistorey car park, are being converted into offices/development space for the computer games industry. They've already done this with the former House of Fraser in the next street.

Both developments have been welcomed by most of the remaining town-centre shops as it brings a substantial number of well-paid jobs into the town centre which they hope will translate into more trade for these shops.

[rhyds]

As far as I am aware, there isn't a listed MSCP in the UK? The Architects Journal however, ran a recent article about Rupert Street in Bristol https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/new ... t-be-saved It doesn't look too much like an architectural gem to me though! However, the 20th Century Society seem to have other ideas.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-64725188
Bid to protect 'iconic' 1950's multi-storey car park in Bristol. Published 22 February 2023 Rupert Street car park in Bristol was described as "an iconic brutalist car park" by the 20th Century Society. By Jonathan Holmes BBC News

A group which campaigns to preserve modern buildings has applied to have a multi-storey car park in Bristol listed with Historic England. Rupert Street car park could be at risk of being demolished if plans for flats are submitted by developers Greystar.

But the 20th Century Society said the 1950s structure could be turned into a charging hub for electric cars. "We feel that this is an iconic brutalist car park," said 20th Century Society's Coco Whittaker. "It is an important example as it was the first in existence to have a continuous ramped floor - it's a classic," she added. The car park was built between December 1959 and October 1960. When it opened, the car park was hailed as revolutionary. It was the first of its kind to feature a continuous spiral parking ramp in the UK, which is half-a-mile long. Ms Whittaker said the building could be repurposed to add many more electric car charging points if it is saved."A clear opportunity now presents itself to adapt this innovative 20th century structure to provide a green and exciting solution to a very 21st century problem," she added.

It's because it's the first of its kind, but if retaining it is detrimental to the wider ambition of the city centre then it needs to go, regardless. We have this obsessive "Britain must be a theme park to the past" mentality, and it's why nothing ever works.

The problem with listing buildings like car parks or cooling towers and so on is the "so now what?" question. What do you do with the building now that you've made any significant upgrades much more expensive and time consuming? Most of the time the answer is "nothing", so you just wait for it to naturally decay for 20-30 years and then have to demolish it for safety reasons. A good example of this is how most seaside piers end up burning down and then eventually falling in to the sea.

As for this particular car park, the idea of using it as an EV charging hub isn't as good a plan as you'd imagine ar first. As mentioned elsewhere EVs are amongst the wider and heavier cars on the road today, and I can't help but think that a late 50s car park with a spiral ramp will make access quite difficult for those vehicles. Add to that floors that are designed for the weight of the average 50s/60s car (about 750kg for something like a MK1 Cortina or a Morris Minor, 1,500kg for something like a Rover P5B) rather than the 2,000kg of a Kia EV6. You'd also need substantial power grid connections to run the chargers, which may or may not be available

[roadtester]

Karting is a good use.

I've been to a few events at this karting facility which I'd always assumed was previously a multi-storey car park, but looking at the website it appears that is was actually purpose-designed/built as a multi-level kart track - which seems like a lot of trouble to go to considering how many car parks there are out there which could be adapted.

https://www.team-sport.co.uk/go-kart-tracks/crawley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=RGHJkN63ajQ

[roadtester]

As for this particular car park, the idea of using it as an EV charging hub isn't as good a plan as you'd imagine ar first. As mentioned elsewhere EVs are amongst the wider and heavier cars on the road today, and I can't help but think that a late 50s car park with a spiral ramp will make access quite difficult for those vehicles. Add to that floors that are designed for the weight of the average 50s/60s car (about 750kg for something like a MK1 Cortina or a Morris Minor, 1,500kg for something like a Rover P5B) rather than the 2,000kg of a Kia EV6. You'd also need substantial power grid connections to run the chargers, which may or may not be available

I find it difficult to believe that a whole car park could become an EV hub but maybe just doing a part of one might be viable perhaps.

One way of doing it could be to offer it as a combined charging/long-term parking facility for city centre flat-dwellers without their own OSP. In that case the chargers wouldn't need to be rapids, which presumably would make the power supply issues easier.

Also, I wonder whether 're-spacing' the parking area could be carried out to contain the amount of weight a given floor would need to support - charging spaces tend to be bigger than normal parking spaces anyway.

[rhyds]

I'd say the biggest issue is the spiral ramp. Depending on the width and curvature it might be a problem for larger cars.

[FleetlinePhil]

On the subject of listed multi-storey car parks, there's this one in Brewer Street in London.

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1063903

That said, it now appears to have been reimagined as a 'curated creative space' rather than continuing to be used as a car park.

https://brewerstreetcarpark.com/

Ah, this is the one I was think about. Thank you for posting. So, it might be an educated guess to say that this is the only listed MSCP in the UK, not unless anyone know any different?

There is an open MSCP above Preston Bus Station which presumably shares the Grade II listing of the bus station itself.

I'd always assumed the striking design of the MSCP largely was the reason for the listing at Preston? The bus station itself might have some historical merit being an early nose-in island design, I suppose.

MSCPs are not something I've ever used much in cities. One in Salisbury when passing through many years ago, and one in Manchester more recently when we had to call with our son when taking him back to the airport - he needed to pick up a ring that had been resized and wasn't ready when it should have been.

[roadtester]

I'd say the biggest issue is the spiral ramp. Depending on the width and curvature it might be a problem for larger cars.

I haven't ever really had a problem with big cars and ramps but I'd probably put EV charging on level zero for all sorts of reasons.

I've never looked into this in detail but also, cars with bespoke EV platforms tend to be natively rear motor/RWD, which makes it easier to engineer a tight turning circle compared with an FWD, e.g. Volkswagen MEB

https://insideevs.com/news/498682/vw-id ... rcle-test/

[Ruperts Trooper]

I'd say the biggest issue is the spiral ramp. Depending on the width and curvature it might be a problem for larger cars.

I haven't ever really had a problem with big cars and ramps but I'd probably put EV charging on level zero for all sorts of reasons.

I've never looked into this in detail but also, cars with bespoke EV platforms tend to be natively rear motor/RWD, which makes it easier to engineer a tight turning circle compared with an FWD, e.g. Volkswagen MEB

https://insideevs.com/news/498682/vw-id ... rcle-test/

The limitations of FWD turning circle is merely a matter of design/engineering - Korean-built FWD* cars like the Hyundai Santa Fe have impressively small turning circles so anything with an unacceptable turning circle is self-imposed. Some larger, more expensive cars have rear-steering as well which reduces the turning circle.

* the Santa Fe is full-time front wheel drive with part-time rear drive added

[ForestChav]

At the time the Broadmarsh sale/redevelopment/closure was a disaster, but given the new normal it was probably ahead of it's time. They should really sort out a temporary square or something down there though - last time I looked it was still pretty much a half-demolished shopping centre and boards everywhere.

Well, it kind of got derailed a bit by intu going skint and then NCC doing the same, personally I would quite like the idea of just leaving the (pedestrian) right of way through from what was Lister Gate to Carrington St (the square in the centre where Argos was) and then making the rest open space for people to use, kids to skateboard in etc until someone can actually decide what to do with it.

It can't really be another shopping centre because the rest of the centre is already in decline with empty shops all over the place because they've made it harder to get into the middle/park but most things are better than a building site.

[chaseracer]

The one in my town centre is redundant and there are plans to demolish it. Although built of brick rather than concrete it suffers from stains running down the walls and is generally an eyesore. Even if it is torn down and replaced what will the replacement be? Both indoor shopping centres are full of empty units so retail isn't going to be the new use. The days when shoppers park their vehicles in these car parks and spend several hours walking round the shops are long gone. Everyone now wants to park outside the store they are visiting, purchase the items and be out again straight away.

Google the name of your town council and the word “redevelopment” and you’ll find out they’re hoping a developer is going to come along and build a multiscreen cinema and attached chain restaurants there, plus stuff on pretty much every car park they own in the town.

And this is the first thing I saw.

"...and a Northern Gateway will be created to remove the existing subway under the Ringway which will connect the town centre to Beecroft Road car park via a new at grade crossing over the Ringway."

This is exactly the sort of nonsense we don't need. It's not as if the town centre is jammed enough as it is without more at-grade conflicts added

I thought I recognised the town from your description!

Ringway - as the name suggests - is the main road (A34) around the town centre. Typical CCDC idiocy... this, from the same local authority* which claimed the 'designer outlet' a mile away would have no detrimental effect.