A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

[True Yorkie]

This is true. This is most seen if heading out of York and either turning onto the westbound A64 or doing a U-turn using the roundabout to go back along the A1079 back into york. Exit from Hull Road where the farmhouse is, you'll get out because the previous set on the roundabout has gone red, but just after the slip for the eastbound A64, you'll get a red and traffic coming off the e/b A64 gets a green... next set of lights is between the A166 and A1079 - goes to red again. The next set is back round over the A64 where the slip coming off the westbound A64 is, and that just goes to red as you swing round from the A1079/A166 set. And for some of the traffic it's even worse now because Elvington Road now has it's own set of traffic lights that go to red just before the main set of lights!

[kieron]

Putting traffic lights on a roundabout is a sign that the roundabout has failed, and can't cope with the traffic.

Luckily, it changes the roundabout into a different sort of junction at the same time.

They are pretty much guaranteed to stuff up the traffic more than it was previously, overall, but they can be made to ensure that it is at least stuffed up evenly on all approaches.

That has not been my experience of lights being added to roundabouts. They can prevent a single circulating vehicle from blocking in traffic trying to join from two or three lanes of traffic. They can also prevent a queue for an exit from doing the same thing (some drivers leave a gap without prompting, but some don't). They can also enable traffic to make better use of extra lanes.

It doesn't add as much capacity as a GSJ, but it doesn't cost as much or have the same merging/weaving problems.

Incidentally, I've looked up the source of the £17.8m figure (this press release), and it isn't the cost of the Hopgrove improvement, but the council's highway improvement budget for 2006-7. The Hopgrove scheme itself (as described in this news story will cost £9m. I don't know if you could get a M6 J15-alike for that much.

[Stevie D]

That has not been my experience of lights being added to roundabouts. They can prevent a single circulating vehicle from blocking in traffic trying to join from two or three lanes of traffic. They can also prevent a queue for an exit from doing the same thing (some drivers leave a gap without prompting, but some don't). They can also enable traffic to make better use of extra lanes.

What it also guarantees to do is to add delays when the roundabout is not congested. Compare this with the Grimston Bar roundabout - signalised all the time, and at night you would usually be able to get on and round without stopping if the lights were turned off, but as it is you pretty near always have to stop.

It can also make the roundabout more dangerous! I have seen so many very-near-misses on signalised roundabouts - mostly in Northants and Croydon - where drivers get so overwhelmed by the choices of lanes, exits and signalheads to look at that they often miss the one set of signals that they are fast approaching...

Incidentally, I've looked up the source of the £17.8m figure (this press release), and it isn't the cost of the Hopgrove improvement, but the council's highway improvement budget for 2006-7. The Hopgrove scheme itself (as described in this news story will cost £9m. I don't know if you could get a M6 J15-alike for that much.

Even £9m is ridiculous for what they are proposing. Markham Moor, with six approaches and two service areas, is being fully GSJ'd for about £16m, I think - with considerably more than double the benefit.

[Rillington]

The amount of money does seem rather excessive for basically building little more than traffic lights.

And I also have the opinion that all traffic lights do is increase journey times and therefore increase queues and congestion which to me goes against their intention which is to reduce congestion isn't it?

[DavidBrown]

And I also have the opinion that all traffic lights do is increase journey times and therefore increase queues and congestion which to me goes against their intention which is to reduce congestion isn't it?

On busy roundabouts, part time lights can help massively as it makes it far, far easier for vehicles to enter the roundabout - a lot of the time it can be quicker to wait for a full sequence than it is waiting for a safe gap.

However, on a roundabout as overloaded as Hopgrove, it is a sticking plaster on a leaking dam. 10am-4pm on a weekday, it'll work well. Come rush hour, or any day through the summer, it'll fail miserably.

[NICK 647063]

the amount of money does seem rather excessive for basically building little more than traffic lights.

Its hard to see where they will spend all this money the main work will be making the short D2 into D3 and the traffic lights, but it does seem a lot of money for this, its such a shame no one in the H/A can see this won't work, yes it will let A1237 traffic get out on to the roundabout which is a problem but as for the A64 all i can say is the roundabout IS NOT the problem look when its busy traffic queues over the roundabout due to the D2 going into S2 just click this link to see http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&F ... &encType=1
looking at the link you can see the problem and if anyone thinks traffic lights will work please tell me what difference they would make to that traffic on a normal summer day.

Part of me is glad to hear of some money finally been spent on the A64 but the problem is looking at any of the H/A schemes for the A64 they all say the hopgrove roundabout would need to become a GSJ, so this money is just been wasted!! the jams won't go with these lights, it just needs a few more million adding and do the job right.

but the only real solution is to dual the A64 between malton and york to stop the traffic trying to squeeze into an outdated overloaded S2.

[True Yorkie]

The last time we had a spate of proper good hot weather (which was about 3 years ago!!) the saturday traffic was stupid... Even the A1036 up to Monks Cross from the city got congested. I fail to see how traffic lights will resolve the issue. It's like giving somebody painkillers for a broken leg - it'll ease initial pain, but the underlying problem is still there.

[Mark Hewitt]

Lights can definitely help on the roundabout at the northern terminus of the A194(M) tailbacks of over a mile were not uncommon, but they've since put on full time lights and added an extra lane on approach and queues there are now almost unknown.

They can also work well with not so busy roundabouts too as long as the sensors are configured properly. This used to be the case at A1(M) J63 (Chester-le-Street), but recently I've been waiting there on a red where there is no traffic circulating, so I think something has gone wrong there.

[jackal]

Does anyone know if they're putting in left turn filter lanes as part of the work? Specifically, for A64N -> A64S and A64S -> A1237?

I know these movements are not the main problem at the roundabout, but removing them from it entirely would at least mean that traffic making those movements doesn't get caught up on the problems created by other movements (e.g. queueing across the roundabout caused by the lack of merge space on the A64N).

The filters could join as lane gains, so there'd be no merging issues for those movements. Having the left hand lane of the A64S dedicated to traffic from A64N is obviously fair enough, since 50%+ of the traffic comes from there, and the A1237 is being widened to D3, so having one lane of it from A64S is also perfectly okay.

What I don't want to see is these relatively unproblematic movements made problematic by signalization. Filters are the way forward!

[Stevie D]

Does anyone know if they're putting in left turn filter lanes as part of the work? Specifically, for A64N -> A64S and A64S -> A1237?

A64N -> A64S definitely should be there ... although that would negate the possibility of widening the link road to three lanes, because you've only got one "exit" lane on each of the two roads then.

A64S -> A1237 wouldn't work because it would have to cross the A1036 flow. I'd be a bit nervous about putting in a freeflow from A64S onto the link road, because it's so short I think you'd get serious weaving problems. The western roundabout is so small and has such bad alignment it's almost dangerous for the volumes using it, and there just isn't space on that short link road to cope with people having to change lanes.

[True Yorkie]

Any major improvement needs to see that smaller western roundabout got shot of. I'd re-route the A1036 somewhere around Monks Cross and have it merge with the A1237 there, thus leaving 3/4 mile for weaving etc. Having that bit between MX and hopgrove as D2 would give significant improvement for hopgrove even if the main roundabout stayed - and it'd then allow for a free flow from the A64 coast-bound to the A1237 westbound.

The present arrangement with the A64 roundabout and then a strip of "road" that lasts for just a few yards before the next roundabout is lunacy.

[jackal]

How about this as a cheap fix: make the two roundabouts into one very large kidney shaped one, incorporating the 150 yards of D2. On the cheapest version of that scheme, the only expenses would be signs, paint, plus portable concrete barriers to block off the dead bits of road. It would still be a mess, but maybe a bit less of one - and even if you put signals in at the same time, you'd spend a tiny fraction of the cost of the plan that's actually happening. If they're just going to fiddle, I'd prefer they do it as cheaply as possible, rather than spend millions when it will be replaced by a GSJ eventually...

[Stevie D]

How about this as a cheap fix: make the two roundabouts into one very large kidney shaped one, incorporating the 150 yards of D2. On the cheapest version of that scheme, the only expenses would be signs, paint, plus portable concrete barriers to block off the dead bits of road. It would still be a mess, but maybe a bit less of one - and even if you put signals in at the same time, you'd spend a tiny fraction of the cost of the plan that's actually happening. If they're just going to fiddle, I'd prefer they do it as cheaply as possible, rather than spend millions when it will be replaced by a GSJ eventually...

That would add a huge loop, including a tight U-turn, for traffic following the A64 from Leeds towards Scab, which would potentially be very dangerous given the number of lorries and caravans making that journey. If you're going to go for a kidneybout, you'd need a cut-through for Scab-bound A64 traffic.

[jackal]

How about this as a cheap fix: make the two roundabouts into one very large kidney shaped one, incorporating the 150 yards of D2. On the cheapest version of that scheme, the only expenses would be signs, paint, plus portable concrete barriers to block off the dead bits of road. It would still be a mess, but maybe a bit less of one - and even if you put signals in at the same time, you'd spend a tiny fraction of the cost of the plan that's actually happening. If they're just going to fiddle, I'd prefer they do it as cheaply as possible, rather than spend millions when it will be replaced by a GSJ eventually...

That would add a huge loop, including a tight U-turn, for traffic following the A64 from Leeds towards Scab, which would potentially be very dangerous given the number of lorries and caravans making that journey. If you're going to go for a kidneybout, you'd need a cut-through for Scab-bound A64 traffic.

Yes, I thought that after I wrote it. So really, it would be a teardrop interchange but minus the grade separation (can only think of this smaller example at Stansted right now - obviously the linking bit of S2 would be D2 at Hopgrove). Surely better than what's there at present? It only makes turns involving the minor road and A1237->A1036 circuitous, neither of which are major movements (Monks Cross Link and Jockey Lane cut the A1237-A1036 corner).

[True Yorkie]

I don't know if it has already been done - but plans are to shut off one end of North Lane between the A1237 and A64, as locals there have had enough with rat-running along the narrow country lane. This closure will (or has) put even more traffic onto hopgrove. It is also worth thinking that when the A1236 was built, somebody actually thought that linking North lane at both ends to major roads would be a good idea!

[NICK 647063]

I don't know if it has already been done - but plans are to shut off one end of North Lane between the A1237 and A64, as locals there have had enough with rat-running along the narrow country lane. This closure will (or has) put even more traffic onto hopgrove. It is also worth thinking that when the A1236 was built, somebody actually thought that linking North lane at both ends to major roads would be a good idea!

Yes north lane is still open (for now), i can see why locals are upset that lane is so busy even late at night, i just can't believe when the A1237 was built they could not see it would be used as a short cut, closing north lane will put so much extra traffic onto the hopgrove roundabout, maybe they think its wise to leave it open until the 46 weeks worth of roadworks are over so there is not even more traffic in the roadworks area.


well only time will tell with this scheme we shall see if the traffic lights work, but its a shame to think all this money will be wasted in a few years because any plans for the A64 all include making it a GSJ.

[Simon62]

Any improvement to this junction is pretty pointless unless the A 64 e/b is widened.

[True Yorkie]

And that's where it comes to the crunch... because whilst the HA and local councils fiff faff around and try to ease the minds of every single NIMBY in the area, York will suffer because we will still have a D2 going down to an S2 at the roundabout. When first done I expect the initial thought was along the lines that York is significant enough for half of the traffic to be leaving there, but didn't take into account the extra traffic generated from the A59. A19, etc, by means of the A1237 which thus negates any traffic that comes off the A64 dual carriageway.

At the least, the A64 "crappy stretch" (as I call it) needs to be dual carriageway up to at least The Highwayman cafe (about 1 - 1 1/2 mile of D2) but preferrably should go up to the Hazelbush (or Towthorpe) Crossroads with a significant grade-seperated junction there.

[NICK 647063]

This scheme is now due to start after christmas due to problems with the contractors according to the local paper

[NICK 647063]

This scheme is now due to start after christmas due to problems with the contractors according to the local paper

well i drove past today and the signs on the ground say works start here 1st december 2008 till winter 2009, so it seems it was only delayed by a week in the end.