New Lower Thames Crossing

[zapalniczka]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-68274781

Community drop in events now taking place.

[KeithW]

The question there then is that construction is probably not the expensive part, it's the decades of back and forth in planning and design that push things well into high prices?

Acquisition of the land will not be cheap of course. I spotted a 0.8 acre plot near Grays priced at £1.3 million.

[jackal]

The recommendation report has been sent to the SoS, who has 3 months to make a decision.

https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-road ... ep-closer/

[higgie]

Why is the link stopping at A2?

Surely extending it to M26 would be far more useful.

Also, extend it right up to Billericay and onto A414, which could bring the Ringway 4 back into play.

[AnOrdinarySABREUser]

Why is the link stopping at A2?

Surely extending it to M26 would be far more useful.

Also, extend it right up to Billericay and onto A414, which could bring the Ringway 4 back into play.

Oh, god no. We don’t need more environmental destruction. The LTC will suffice. I’m not looking forward to the huge traffic increase on roads across North Kent which will be caused by latent demand for travel by car at Dartford and Gravesend. Have we not learnt from the monstrosities in North America? As good as new road infrastructure is, it’s not sustainable, and we can’t keep on building new roads in existing corridors expecting the issue to go away. It’ll get worse.

[AnOrdinarySABREUser]

The recommendation report has been sent to the SoS, who has 3 months to make a decision.

https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-road ... ep-closer/

I wonder if the project will get the green light in the end. Funds seem tight at the moment. Perhaps it will be stripped down like the A14 in the 80s/90s? There doesn’t seem to be much appetite for big, expensive infrastructure projects at the moment. See the mess created out of HS2.

[higgie]

Why is the link stopping at A2?

Surely extending it to M26 would be far more useful.

Also, extend it right up to Billericay and onto A414, which could bring the Ringway 4 back into play.

Oh, god no. We don’t need more environmental destruction. The LTC will suffice. I’m not looking forward to the huge traffic increase on roads across North Kent which will be caused by latent demand for travel by car at Dartford and Gravesend. Have we not learnt from the monstrosities in North America? As good as new road infrastructure is, it’s not sustainable, and we can’t keep on building new roads in existing corridors expecting the issue to go away. It’ll get worse.

Doesn't seem to stop the rest of Europe.
Spain builds road infrastructure everywhere as well as High Speed Rail.
They are also starting to take a lot of investment from the UK.

[AnOrdinarySABREUser]

Doesn't seem to stop the rest of Europe.
Spain builds road infrastructure everywhere as well as High Speed Rail.
They are also starting to take a lot of investment from the UK.

So, what’s your point?

Countries like Spain have built motorways in parallel with one another. See the A-7 and AP-7 by Tarragona as an example. I don’t think that’s a good precedent to set for the economy or the environment.

[higgie]

Doesn't seem to stop the rest of Europe.
Spain builds road infrastructure everywhere as well as High Speed Rail.
They are also starting to take a lot of investment from the UK.

So, what’s your point?

Countries like Spain have built motorways in parallel with one another. See the A-7 and AP-7 by Tarragona as an example. I don’t think that’s a good precedent to set for the economy or the environment.

Otherwise the UK will become a 2nd class nation, that gets poorer and poorer.

[Gaz909909]

Doesn't seem to stop the rest of Europe.
Spain builds road infrastructure everywhere as well as High Speed Rail.
They are also starting to take a lot of investment from the UK.

So, what’s your point?

Countries like Spain have built motorways in parallel with one another. See the A-7 and AP-7 by Tarragona as an example. I don’t think that’s a good precedent to set for the economy or the environment.

You do know this is a roads forum? We discuss and hypothesise new builds here. It's what we do!

So I think it's a great idea extending to M26. For any network to work it needs to be complete. The main problem with much of the UK motorway network, compared to the EU or US is it's lack of completeness. Do you want cars efficiently moving across the country, or getting dumped onto the A road network, struggling through towns and roundabouts? I get not over doing it, but we at least an actual working network first.
Manchester to Sheffield.
Exeter to Southampton.
M25 to M2 to M26!

[AnOrdinarySABREUser]

So, what’s your point?

Countries like Spain have built motorways in parallel with one another. See the A-7 and AP-7 by Tarragona as an example. I don’t think that’s a good precedent to set for the economy or the environment.

You do know this is a roads forum? We discuss and hypothesise new builds here. It's what we do!

So I think it's a great idea extending to M26. For any network to work it needs to be complete. The main problem with much of the UK motorway network, compared to the EU or US is it's lack of completeness. Do you want cars efficiently moving across the country, or getting dumped onto the A road network, struggling through towns and roundabouts? I get not over doing it, but we at least an actual working network first.
Manchester to Sheffield.
Exeter to Southampton.
M25 to M2 to M26!

Yes, I do, don't worry.

However, from my perspective, there is no need for another orbital or bypass of London, especially one that passes through an AONB or National Landscape, like the Kent Downs.

You already have the route you're looking for further to the east in the form of the A229. If you're really unhappy with it, then you can make some of the movements freeflow.

This is money better spent on the unrelated corridors you mention, which are poorly connected to one another through the strategic road network.

edit: fixed quoting

[Cryoraptor]

I hope the M2 will be fully upgraded to D3M or higher throughout in tandem with this new Thames Crossing; the D2M sections are already over capacity with overtaking lorries slowing traffic to below 60mph, not to mention J7 needing reengineering to be free-flow to the A2, I have no idea which cretin came up with the idea of routing the main course of traffic through a roundabout. Adding more traffic will be a nightmare and not sustainable without significant upgrades to the M2.

However, from my perspective, there is no need for another orbital or bypass of London, especially one that passes through an AONB or National Landscape, like the Kent Downs.

And with this attitude, the traffic problems of the south east will never be fixed. The southern M25 desperately needs a parallel route further south for traffic south of London bound for Gatwick, Hampshire and the south west, it was never designed to carry this traffic but the lack of a suitable route in this area forces traffic that doesn't need to use it onto the already crowded motorway, and adjacent routes like the M20.

You already have the route you're looking for further to the east in the form of the A229. If you're really unhappy with it, then you can make some of the movements freeflow.

A route that is a notorious bottleneck and has had various concerns about coping with the extra traffic flow from LTC raised.

I get the desire to not destroy nature, but it's time to start treating the south east like the populated suburban area it is and not like the rural backwater where about 10 people live it was in times gone by. A comprehensive network suitable for the suburban region it is is a necessity if you don't want the region to keep falling behind and being economically dependent on wealthy city workers who outprice the locals.

It's either massively upgrading the road network in the region and regretfully encroaching on nature, or revitalising the rail network which is an even bigger mess in this region and even more inefficient for travel that doesn't end at London. You can't have neither and retain the current population of the region.

[AnOrdinarySABREUser]

I hope the M2 will be fully upgraded to D3M or higher throughout in tandem with this new Thames Crossing; the D2M sections are already over capacity with overtaking lorries slowing traffic to below 60mph <snip>

The M2 needs to be widened at a later date to make room for new developments but I don't see it being widened this decade. Besides, adding more capacity to the M2 will only incentivise more people to travel by car, and not to mention that it'd be filled up by people living in new developments along the M2 corridor, so the cycle repeats again. This is not sustainable growth and improvement. If lorries overtaking are a huge issue, then a weight limit could be imposed to prevent traffic from slowing down too much.

<snip> not to mention J7 needing reengineering to be free-flow to the A2, I have no idea which cretin came up with the idea of routing the main course of traffic through a roundabout. <snip>

Uh, what are you talking about? People can take the A289 to reach Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham, which is completely freeflowing with the M2. As far as I can tell, the A2 was retained to provide access to Strood. Perhaps the roundabout is a reflection of that - a traffic calming technique used to encourage people to use the A289 instead. Yes, I understand that it's a long detour on the A289, but the A2 is snarled up most of the rush hour anyway.

And with this attitude, the traffic problems of the south east will never be fixed. The southern M25 desperately needs a parallel route further south for traffic south of London bound for Gatwick, Hampshire and the south west, it was never designed to carry this traffic but the lack of a suitable route in this area forces traffic that doesn't need to use it onto the already crowded motorway, and adjacent routes like the M20.

I agree that the M2 is inadequate for modern purposes, but the M20 copes just fine, especially after J6 and J7, where all the M2/M20 movements are located. However, I do not see how Ringways V2 is needed to solve traffic problems on the M25. I doubt such a project would get off the ground in the first place - it'd have to pass through several National Parks/Landscapes, which the M25 already encroaches upon. I don't see there being much appetite for this one.

A route that is a notorious bottleneck and has had various concerns about coping with the extra traffic flow from LTC raised.

Which is why I mentioned that more freeflow movements could be added to M2 J3 and M20 J6. KCC are proposing to widen the A229(S) to 3 lanes but are only adding at-grade connections to ease traffic, which is not desirable.

I get the desire to not destroy nature, but it's time to start treating the south east like the populated suburban area it is and not like the rural backwater where about 10 people live it was in times gone by. A comprehensive network suitable for the suburban region it is is a necessity if you don't want the region to keep falling behind and being economically dependent on wealthy city workers who outprice the locals.

It's either massively upgrading the road network in the region and regretfully encroaching on nature, or revitalising the rail network which is an even bigger mess in this region and even more inefficient for travel that doesn't end at London. You can't have neither and retain the current population of the region.

If the rail network is in a worse state than the road network then why aren't we taking the time and money to improve it? I know the answer, of course, and that's due to political reasons with a dash of car-dependent development thrown in the mix. I don't think anyone reasonable truly desires to see London and the South East turned into a British replica of Houston, so I can't understand why people want these destructive road schemes to happen. It's not as if the South East is deprived of road infrastructure either - this is one of the densest parts of the motorway network.

I don't want to add too much onto this so I'm just going to leave that wall of text there.

[Bessie]

The South East has a much less dense network of high quality roads than similarly developed regions of other countries, including Germany and the Netherlands. The notion that the UK is abnormally car-dependent, and that this is because of induced traffic, is wrong.

It is reasonable to want to restrict further development. But the unintended consequences will be weaker productivity, lower real wage growth, a less strong tax base from which to fund public services - and more expensive housing. So it would not be my choice.

[BF2142]

We live in a car-dependent, oil-based economy that is interlinked with the wider global economy. Greens, XR, JSO and CPRE may hate that but that’s the way it is. Cars and oil usage aren’t going to disappear. USA, China, India are all deeply-committed to the oil economy and related infrastructure. We can kid ourselves that we’re world leaders in developing a “green economy” but the reality is that the big economic don’t really care about it. Car usage may well be restricted in some towns but as the dominant and preferred travel method for most people, most of the time, car usage won’t stop.

Greater London-SE has imo a cadaverous strategic road network. While I couldn’t support a ringways plan in central and inner London, the wider region would benefit from an outer M25 and some additional motorway linkages, combined with tolling of the entire M25 and the closure of a few junctions (Maple Cross and Addlestone). Obviously we need to invest in new HS railway's, we are rich enough to do both.

[higgie]

I hope the M2 will be fully upgraded to D3M or higher throughout in tandem with this new Thames Crossing; the D2M sections are already over capacity with overtaking lorries slowing traffic to below 60mph, not to mention J7 needing reengineering to be free-flow to the A2, I have no idea which cretin came up with the idea of routing the main course of traffic through a roundabout. Adding more traffic will be a nightmare and not sustainable without significant upgrades to the M2.

However, from my perspective, there is no need for another orbital or bypass of London, especially one that passes through an AONB or National Landscape, like the Kent Downs.

And with this attitude, the traffic problems of the south east will never be fixed. The southern M25 desperately needs a parallel route further south for traffic south of London bound for Gatwick, Hampshire and the south west, it was never designed to carry this traffic but the lack of a suitable route in this area forces traffic that doesn't need to use it onto the already crowded motorway, and adjacent routes like the M20.

You already have the route you're looking for further to the east in the form of the A229. If you're really unhappy with it, then you can make some of the movements freeflow.

A route that is a notorious bottleneck and has had various concerns about coping with the extra traffic flow from LTC raised.

I get the desire to not destroy nature, but it's time to start treating the south east like the populated suburban area it is and not like the rural backwater where about 10 people live it was in times gone by. A comprehensive network suitable for the suburban region it is is a necessity if you don't want the region to keep falling behind and being economically dependent on wealthy city workers who outprice the locals.

It's either massively upgrading the road network in the region and regretfully encroaching on nature, or revitalising the rail network which is an even bigger mess in this region and even more inefficient for travel that doesn't end at London. You can't have neither and retain the current population of the region.

Would love to see a south coast expressway from Dover to Exeter.
Remember the Folkestone to Honiton plans!!!!
When it is quicker to go from Southampton to Dover via M25, something is wrong.

[Peter Freeman]

Have we not learnt from the monstrosities in North America?

It seems that Americans haven't. Contrary to popular opinion, or your wishful thinking, the US quite likes most of its roads, and still builds (well-designed) new ones (urban, rural, and some at a large-scale) - where needed.

[Chris5156]

not to mention J7 needing reengineering to be free-flow to the A2, I have no idea which cretin came up with the idea of routing the main course of traffic through a roundabout. Adding more traffic will be a nightmare and not sustainable without significant upgrades to the M2.

M2 <--> A299 was the dominant flow when the junction was designed in the early 1960s. Today the A299 is still considerably busier than the A2. On that basis the cretin you refer to got it right because the main course of traffic does not pass through the roundabout.

[Peter Freeman]

I hope the M2 will be fully upgraded to D3M or higher throughout in tandem with this new Thames Crossing; the D2M sections are already over capacity with overtaking lorries slowing traffic to below 60mph ...

Below 60mph? That's bloody shameful! That's a whole 10mph below the speed limit!

I hope the M2 will be upgraded to whatever width it requires, when its priority (based on congestion, safety and BCR) exceeds the lowest priority project in the current pipeline. That might occur after LTC completion. Who knows.

[AnOrdinarySABREUser]

OMG- sorry Cryoraptor, I noticed you were talking about J7, not J1… I can’t believe that slipped my mind. Yes, I completely agree with you on that.