New Lower Thames Crossing

[ManomayLR]

People in the SW are still waiting for the paused electrification into Bristol Temple Meads to be completed.

I don't trust the gov to be upfront about HS2. Their entire rail infra plan from 2009 has not been delivered. Remember the "electric spine", remember HS3, remember electrifying to Swansea and the Valleys, the western access for Heathrow? They have no other big ticket infra project to fall back on. If HS2 terminates at Birmingham, it will be game over for them in another policy area. "The party that overpromises and underdelivers on pretty much everything".

My concern is that Lab will play it too conservatively and have another banal can-kicking infra "review" before, predictably, cancelling everything.

What ever happened to the UK that could build? When did we become a nation of timid, fearful, nostalgic nimbys?

When my son was in the army, he was taught the 7 P's (p*ss poor planning produces p*ss poor performance).

"Failing to plan is planning to fail" is easier to remember in my opinion...

[KeithW]

Considering that smart motorways have been axed, (at the least, proposed ALR schemes have) I wonder if the LTC will be affected by this? As far as I'm aware, I don't think it will, despite the fact that the LTC is, for all intents and purposes, a motorway with green camouflage painted on it. I read this article by the Thames Crossing Action Group, a group led by opponents of the scheme, and I'm quite interested by it. I think they raise a few points, and being opposed to the scheme myself, I find myself agreeing with many of their points. I'll say that this issue is quite moot compared to any of the other issues this scheme has, but I still think that it's quite interesting since smart motorways have become quite political in light of recent activism and axing by the government, so I'd like to see what other's thoughts are on this issue in particular.

There are plenty of non motorway restricted access roads around. The new A14 and parts of the A19 come to mind, there were also parts of the old A1 in North Yorkshire that did the same. All you need is a TRO at the end of the day.

[AnOrdinarySABREUser]

There are plenty of non motorway restricted access roads around. The new A14 and parts of the A19 come to mind, there were also parts of the old A1 in North Yorkshire that did the same. All you need is a TRO at the end of the day.

This is setting a worrying precedent for future road building. Because ALR schemes have been axed by the government, won't NH resort to building motorway-style expressways instead of proper motorways just to avoid building a hard shoulder? I've perceived this sudden austerity by NH as a move towards schemes like M42 junction 6, which worries me on the state of road planning at the moment. To quote Vierwielen:

[...] p*ss poor planning produces p*ss poor performance.

[KeithW]

This is setting a worrying precedent for future road building. Because ALR schemes have been axed by the government, won't NH resort to building motorway-style expressways instead of proper motorways just to avoid building a hard shoulder? I've perceived this sudden austerity by NH as a move towards schemes like M42 junction 6, which worries me on the state of road planning at the moment. To quote Vierwielen:

If there was a precedent set it happened at the latest by the 1970's when the A19 was dualled between Thirsk and the Tyne Tunnel. Here we have a very nice free flow junction between the A19 and A66, I would hardly call it austere. Its not a motorway or special road just a dual carriageway with TRO's to restrict use of parts of it by non motorised traffic.
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.5622606 ... authuser=0

In fact of course the precedents were set in the late 1930's with the A405 North Orbital Road - Expressway ala 1930's and locally on Teesside we hot the A1085 'Trunk Road' which was never trunk.

A405
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7034357 ... authuser=0

A1085
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.6087354 ... authuser=0

See also A20 Folkestone to Dover and most of the A38 Devon Expressway

The whole hoo hah about ALR has me bemused. I spent much of last 50 years hammering up and down the highways on D2 roads with no hard shoulder, See A1, A2, A3, A4, A6, A14, A19, A34. A41, A50 etc

[Chris5156]

In fact of course the precedents were set in the late 1930's with the A405 North Orbital Road - Expressway ala 1930's and locally on Teesside we hot the A1085 'Trunk Road' which was never trunk.

A405
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7034357 ... authuser=0

As built in the 1930s the North Orbital Road was a single carriageway road with cycle tracks, flat junctions and occasional field accesses. The dual carriageway you linked to was built in the 1970s, and as far as I’m aware it has no access restrictions.

[KeithW]

As built in the 1930s the North Orbital Road was a single carriageway road with cycle tracks, flat junctions and occasional field accesses. The dual carriageway you linked to was built in the 1970s, and as far as I’m aware it has no access restrictions.

My point was rather to the effect that this was a road designed for high speed (for the 1930's) and there were no access restrictions. I pointed out the A1085 as that was built to a similar standard. It was a local authority road that went through many local authorities so varied between D2 and S4. As for the A405 there have been lots of renumbering and other changes since the 1930's. For a fuller version of the story see.
https://www.roads.org.uk/ringways/ringw ... bital-road

[SouthWest Philip]

As built in the 1930s the North Orbital Road was a single carriageway road with cycle tracks, flat junctions and occasional field accesses. The dual carriageway you linked to was built in the 1970s, and as far as I’m aware it has no access restrictions.

My point was rather to the effect that this was a road designed for high speed (for the 1930's) and there were no access restrictions. I pointed out the A1085 as that was built to a similar standard. It was a local authority road that went through many local authorities so varied between D2 and S4. As for the A405 there have been lots of renumbering and other changes since the 1930's. For a fuller version of the story see.
https://www.roads.org.uk/ringways/ringw ... bital-road

I would imagine that, having written that article, Chris5156 will already be familiar with the fuller version.

[jackal]

There is a "minor refinement consultation" on:

- Reduction of Nitrogen Deposition compensation area and Order Limits at Blue Bell Hill and Burham
- Increase in limits of deviation for the northern tunnel entrance headwall
- Revised utility proposals at East Tilbury (three changes)

https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... tion-2023/

[KeithW]

It does seem like more of a tweak than a significant change with the Order limits being reduced from 23.94 km2 to 23.37 km2 and the operational land use changing from 14.87km2 to be 14.49km2.

Similarly the nitrogen deposition area had changer from 250 hectares (ha) of
compensatory habitat while the amended DCO Application provides 245 hectare

[Micro The Maniac]

There is a "minor refinement consultation" on:
https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... tion-2023/

Another opportunity to remind them that a road that is designed as a motorway, equipped as a motorway, links two motorways and has the same restrictions as a motorway should be classified as a motorway

[jackal]

There is a "minor refinement consultation" on:
https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... tion-2023/

Another opportunity to remind them that a road that is designed as a motorway, equipped as a motorway, links two motorways and has the same restrictions as a motorway should be classified as a motorway

This would have been cancelled if it were a smart motorway. And the last thing the scheme needs is an extra billion or two for hard shoulders.

[Micro The Maniac]

This would have been cancelled if it were a smart motorway. And the last thing the scheme needs is an extra billion or two for hard shoulders.

But that's exactly my point - it *IS* a SMART motorway, in everything respect except the blue signs, just like the A14 at Cambridge

[KeithW]

But that's exactly my point - it *IS* a SMART motorway, in everything respect except the blue signs, just like the A14 at Cambridge

The A14 is NOT a motorway of course, we have quite a few DP roads with VMS signs , the A19 for one.
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.6039495 ... 384!8i8192

Not forgetting the A34
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.860955, ... 384!8i8192

Apparently people are quite prepared to accept AP roads with smart features but not motorways - go figure, I gave up trying to use logic with the average driver a long time ago.

[ManomayLR]

...we have quite a few DP roads with VMS signs , the A19 for one.
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.6039495 ... 384!8i8192

Most major motorway stretches, and all controlled or managed stretches, have "tactical" VMS - these are VMS signs (2-line MS3 or MS4) mounted frequently either on a cantilever or alongside lane control signals.
"Tactical" VMS are designed to display messages (with "red-triangle" legends on MS4), and where lane control signals are not provided, set advisory or mandatory speed limits and advise of lane availability.

The vast majority of A-road dual carriageways have neither lane control, nor "tactical" VMS, including most new builds, except for very short, isolated stretches through tunnels.

What Keith's link illustrates is a "strategic" VMS. As in the example, these are usually 3-line MS3, but some of the newest "strategic" VMS, like this one on the M23, have full-matrix panels like MS4.

Approaching the most major junctions on major motorways and A-road dual carriageways, one or two "strategic" VMS are often provided.
These are designed to provide wider information about the status of the road network, for example any closures or delays that may affect travelers viewing the VMS later on in their journey.

Where both "strategic" and "tactical" VMS are provided, it is not uncommon for "strategic" messages to show on "tactical" VMS or vice-versa. Indeed, there are a few stretches of managed motorway that have no "strategic" VMS at all - in this case the "tactical" MS4s act also as "strategic".

The widened, D4M A2 between the M25 and M2 is special because it is built to near-motorway standard, and unusually for an A-road dual carriageway includes hard shoulders, full lane control gantries equipped with "tactical" VMS, and even MIDAS.

Even more special is the new A14, because it is currently the only stretch of A-road dual carriageway to be fully equipped with the "managed" standard of technology, including variable speed limits, lane control and "tactical" MS4 VMS.
This is the standard the LTC will achieve too.
Both should truthfully be equipped with stopped-vehicle detection.

Most A-road upgrades do not include lane control or "tactical" VMS, but hopefully it will become standard on all new motorway-standard HQDCs.

[Truvelo]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Lower Thames Crossing will soon be scrapped. The way things are going with funding for future road projects and the fact that this is a scheme costing over £1bn means I can see this being consigned to the dustbin along with the Stonehenge Tunnel.

[ManomayLR]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Lower Thames Crossing will soon be scrapped. The way things are going with funding for future road projects and the fact that this is a scheme costing over £1bn means I can see this being consigned to the dustbin along with the Stonehenge Tunnel.

Everything is getting scrapped right now.

Most of these schemes have been at some stage of consideration for decades, only for the can to be repeatedly kicked down the road.

[fras]

Following the pandemic, and consequent government borrowing, it is now very clear the Treasury have cracked the whip and are calling in everything. The wonks in the Treasury are experienced enough to know that cutting current non-capital expenditure is next to impossible but nobody notices if capital projects are scrapped. As I've said before, the country is rapidly becoming just a theme park for foreign tourists to photograph. We're finished, really.

[jackal]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Lower Thames Crossing will soon be scrapped. The way things are going with funding for future road projects and the fact that this is a scheme costing over £1bn means I can see this being consigned to the dustbin along with the Stonehenge Tunnel.

Future road projects have been cut precisely to fund the LTC and Stonehenge. It would be quite a volte-face to cut them. It's not impossible, of course, but I doubt the tiny savings in the grand scheme of things would be worth the hassle - for starters they've already spent £800m developing the LTC, which would take some explaining, and there would be a lot of unhappy west country MPs and voters if Sunak's very public commitment to the A303 turned out to be empty grandstanding. See 49.05 here:

[Bryn666]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Lower Thames Crossing will soon be scrapped. The way things are going with funding for future road projects and the fact that this is a scheme costing over £1bn means I can see this being consigned to the dustbin along with the Stonehenge Tunnel.

Future road projects have been cut precisely to fund the LTC and Stonehenge. It would be quite a volte-face to cut them. It's not impossible, of course, but I doubt the tiny savings in the grand scheme of things would be worth the hassle - for starters they've already spent £800m developing the LTC, which would take some explaining, and there would be a lot of unhappy west country MPs and voters if Sunak's very public commitment to the A303 turned out to be empty grandstanding. See 49.05 here:

Not the same scale but we did spaff £43m on the folly of the Thames Garden Bridge before canning it so the economies of scale probably could be proportioned. Never rule out the willingness of HM Treasury to ensure the status quo of spending the most money whilst doing nothing ever is retained as much as possible.

[JF2309]

Let us not forget that HS2 has been cut back considerably but not completely axed whilst Rail Projects elsewhere on the ‘Legacy’ lines have been axed completely.

Stonehenge and LTC will probably be scaled back but not cut, and you can’t value engineer with 50p and a dream. So expect something crap, like very crap.