New Lower Thames Crossing

[jackal]

Let us not forget that HS2 has been cut back considerably but not completely axed whilst Rail Projects elsewhere on the ‘Legacy’ lines have been axed completely.

Stonehenge and LTC will probably be scaled back but not cut, and you can’t value engineer with 50p and a dream. So expect something crap, like very crap.

There's no saving to be had there because they'd have to restart the DCO process.

[jackal]

Skanska have been awarded the Kent Roads contract at £450m:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kenton ... ct-290228/

It seems significant savings have been found as it was put out for tender at £600m.

Balfour Beatty were awarded the £1.2bn North of Thames contract in January.

The remaining large contract (~£2bn) for tunnels and approaches should be awarded later this year. The shortlist is Bam Nuttall, Ferrovial and Vinci JV; Bouygues Murphy JV; Dragados-Hochtief JV.

If you do the maths it seems the main works contracts will be well below the £5.2bn-£9bn estimate in the funding statement, which admittedly includes development, procurement and land costs.

[ABB125]

Skanska have been awarded the Kent Roads contract at £450m:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kenton ... ct-290228/

It seems significant savings have been found as it was put out for tender at £600m.

Balfour Beatty were awarded the £1.2bn North of Thames contract in January.

The remaining large contract (~£2bn) for tunnels and approaches should be awarded later this year. The shortlist is Bam Nuttall, Ferrovial and Vinci JV; Bouygues Murphy JV; Dragados-Hochtief JV.

If you do the maths it seems the main works contracts will be well below the £5.2bn-£9bn estimate in the funding statement, which admittedly includes development, procurement and land costs.

The Kent section is effectively everything south of the tunnel portal, isn't it? Which begs the question, if all of that spaghetti on the A2 can be done for £450m, why does it cost about the same to add some flyovers to Lofthouse?

[KeithW]

The Kent section is effectively everything south of the tunnel portal, isn't it? Which begs the question, if all of that spaghetti on the A2 can be done for £450m, why does it cost about the same to add some flyovers to Lofthouse?

Well much of the route will be across Marshland which is not exactly highly priced.

[Herned]

The Kent section is effectively everything south of the tunnel portal, isn't it? Which begs the question, if all of that spaghetti on the A2 can be done for £450m, why does it cost about the same to add some flyovers to Lofthouse?

Most of it is offline, so there aren't the traffic management issues to worry about, or the need for temporary layouts. That costs a fortune

[jackal]

Skanska have been awarded the Kent Roads contract at £450m:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kenton ... ct-290228/

It seems significant savings have been found as it was put out for tender at £600m.

Balfour Beatty were awarded the £1.2bn North of Thames contract in January.

The remaining large contract (~£2bn) for tunnels and approaches should be awarded later this year. The shortlist is Bam Nuttall, Ferrovial and Vinci JV; Bouygues Murphy JV; Dragados-Hochtief JV.

If you do the maths it seems the main works contracts will be well below the £5.2bn-£9bn estimate in the funding statement, which admittedly includes development, procurement and land costs.

The Kent section is effectively everything south of the tunnel portal, isn't it? Which begs the question, if all of that spaghetti on the A2 can be done for £450m, why does it cost about the same to add some flyovers to Lofthouse?

Main works contracts (like this) are considerably less than whole scheme costs (like Lofthouse). But yes, £450m does seem extraordinary value given it includes quad carriageways for the A2 as well as the spaghetti.

[Gav]

Its looking grim for this crossing....

Looks like this is going to be cancelled.

[Phil]

Its looking grim for this crossing....

Looks like this is going to be cancelled.

Thing is if the Dart charge stopped being a Cash Cow for HM Treasury and was put towards funding this new crossing then I reckon if the concession lasted long enough you could turn it into a fully privately funded project...

OK its not an exact comparison, but the QE2 bridge managed to have its construction debt paid off in a little over 20 years due to the sheer volume of traffic.

I mean even with electric cars its not as though the volume of traffic is going to get any less and unlike the M6 Toll with both Dartford and this new crossing being charged (and TfLs desire to put a charge on Blackwall / Silvertown) then its not as though motorists have a 'free' alternative to avoid paying up.

[Truvelo]

Look on the bright side. If it does get scrapped then I can draw a map of the proposals and get Steven to put it on the highway plans layer on Sabre Maps.

[JackieRoads]

Look on the bright side. If it does get scrapped then I can draw a map of the proposals and get Steven to put it on the highway plans layer on Sabre Maps.

And then I can draw a M22 strip map using a fantasy route + the proposals and post it on Fantasy Maps & Ideas Thread!

[Vierwielen]

The Kent section is effectively everything south of the tunnel portal, isn't it? Which begs the question, if all of that spaghetti on the A2 can be done for £450m, why does it cost about the same to add some flyovers to Lofthouse?

Well much of the route will be across Marshland which is not exactly highly priced.

Marshland requires good foundations as George Stephenson found out at Chat Moss when building the Liverpool-Manchester railway.

[Vierwielen]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Lower Thames Crossing will soon be scrapped. The way things are going with funding for future road projects and the fact that this is a scheme costing over £1bn means I can see this being consigned to the dustbin along with the Stonehenge Tunnel.

Future road projects have been cut precisely to fund the LTC and Stonehenge. It would be quite a volte-face to cut them. It's not impossible, of course, but I doubt the tiny savings in the grand scheme of things would be worth the hassle - for starters they've already spent £800m developing the LTC, which would take some explaining, and there would be a lot of unhappy west country MPs and voters if Sunak's very public commitment to the A303 turned out to be empty grandstanding. See 49.05 here:

The West Country is part of the Lib Dem's target area. If Sunak wants to win the next election, he has to get the South West on his side as well as the Red Wall seats in the north.

[jervi]

The Kent section is effectively everything south of the tunnel portal, isn't it? Which begs the question, if all of that spaghetti on the A2 can be done for £450m, why does it cost about the same to add some flyovers to Lofthouse?

Well much of the route will be across Marshland which is not exactly highly priced.

Ducks would beg to differ.

#DucksMatter
#DuckPower
#QuackOff

[Scratchwood]

Its looking grim for this crossing....

Looks like this is going to be cancelled.

Thing is if the Dart charge stopped being a Cash Cow for HM Treasury and was put towards funding this new crossing then I reckon if the concession lasted long enough you could turn it into a fully privately funded project...

OK its not an exact comparison, but the QE2 bridge managed to have its construction debt paid off in a little over 20 years due to the sheer volume of traffic.

I mean even with electric cars its not as though the volume of traffic is going to get any less and unlike the M6 Toll with both Dartford and this new crossing being charged (and TfLs desire to put a charge on Blackwall / Silvertown) then its not as though motorists have a 'free' alternative to avoid paying up.

How much money has been raised by the tolls since the construction debt was paid off?

Deducting the annual maintenance costs for the bridge and tunnels, gives the surplus, money which could/should be put towards a new crossing. Financially this is very different scenario from Stonehenge for example.

[Fluid Dynamics]

Its looking grim for this crossing....

Looks like this is going to be cancelled.

Thing is if the Dart charge stopped being a Cash Cow for HM Treasury and was put towards funding this new crossing then I reckon if the concession lasted long enough you could turn it into a fully privately funded project...

OK its not an exact comparison, but the QE2 bridge managed to have its construction debt paid off in a little over 20 years due to the sheer volume of traffic.

I mean even with electric cars its not as though the volume of traffic is going to get any less and unlike the M6 Toll with both Dartford and this new crossing being charged (and TfLs desire to put a charge on Blackwall / Silvertown) then its not as though motorists have a 'free' alternative to avoid paying up.

How much money has been raised by the tolls since the construction debt was paid off?

Deducting the annual maintenance costs for the bridge and tunnels, gives the surplus, money which could/should be put towards a new crossing. Financially this is very different scenario from Stonehenge for example.

The problem is the revenue will already form part of Government’s fiscal plans, you can’t spent it twice.

[John McAdam]

Its looking grim for this crossing....

Looks like this is going to be cancelled.

Not cancelled... but also not mentioned.

[jackal]

The main contract for the tunnel and approaches has been signed with Bouygues Murphy JV. "The £1.34bn price agreed between National Highways and BMJV is siubstantially below the £2.3bn upper estimate that was previously published by the client" (link).

The other two main works contracts were with Balfour Beatty for roads north of the Thames (£1.2bn) and Skanska who will build the roads in Kent (£450m). The mathematically minded will note that £1.34bn+£1.2bn+£450m is a whole lot less than the £9bn that's bandied about. Even with development costs it should be below the £5.2bn to £9bn range indicated in the funding statement.

Meanwhile the DCO examination draws to a close on 20 December.

[Chris5156]

Even with development costs it should be below the £5.2bn to £9bn range indicated in the funding statement.

If so that represents really good value for money, considering it will provide a D3 estuary tunnel in the south east of England and a fair bit of interchange spaghetti.

[Bryn666]

Even with development costs it should be below the £5.2bn to £9bn range indicated in the funding statement.

If so that represents really good value for money, considering it will provide a D3 estuary tunnel in the south east of England and a fair bit of interchange spaghetti.

The question there then is that construction is probably not the expensive part, it's the decades of back and forth in planning and design that push things well into high prices?

[Chris5156]

Even with development costs it should be below the £5.2bn to £9bn range indicated in the funding statement.

If so that represents really good value for money, considering it will provide a D3 estuary tunnel in the south east of England and a fair bit of interchange spaghetti.

The question there then is that construction is probably not the expensive part, it's the decades of back and forth in planning and design that push things well into high prices?

I don't know whether that's true but it certainly makes you wonder - the LTC has made it through the planning process quicker than any project of comparable size that I can recall.