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Truvelo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 12:47
So they're still persisting with the stupid at-grade roundabout
Ach, it's fine. A reasonable environmental and cost compromise for a not desperately busy road.
Now the design is finalised, I wonder if it would be feasible to build some future-proofed version of the roundabout early to deal with the safety problems happening at that junction more quickly. It would also allow right turns into the Hermitage to be banned. You could maybe even have two lanes running northbound through the roundabout with current road width either side, allowing a short passing opportunity...
If heading to Dunkeld from the south the option to safely come off at the Birnam GSJ and avoid the roundabout will be useful. Not that I’d expect huge queues given the relatively light traffic.
I mean the same problem happens now at Inveralmond but the big issue will be making sure southbound traffic that has been continuously moving since Longman isn't "surprised" by the junction. It'll need a damn good sign strategy on that approach for sure.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 16:08
I mean the same problem happens now at Inveralmond but the big issue will be making sure southbound traffic that has been continuously moving since Longman isn't "surprised" by the junction. It'll need a damn good sign strategy on that approach for sure.
They will be wondering where the temporary Tay Crossing roundabout has gone, won't they?
Norfolktolancashire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 22:05
The Dunkeld at grade roundabout will be a magnet for all the usual fast food restaurants, motels and EV charging parks.
Will that be what the residents envisage?
Well, I suppose you might be able to squeeze in a burger van.
Norfolktolancashire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 22:05
The Dunkeld at grade roundabout will be a magnet for all the usual fast food restaurants, motels and EV charging parks.
Will that be what the residents envisage?
That's a fascinating take on the situation. Would be really interested in your thinking behind this conclusion as both the Development Planning and Development Management systems in Scotland should lead to the exact opposite outcome.
Education makes the wise slightly wiser, but it makes the fool vastly more dangerous. N. Taleb We tend to demand impossible standards of proof from our opponents but accept any old rubbish to support our beliefs. The human paradox that is common sense The Backfire Effect
Norfolktolancashire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 22:05
The Dunkeld at grade roundabout will be a magnet for all the usual fast food restaurants, motels and EV charging parks.
Will that be what the residents envisage?
That's a fascinating take on the situation. Would be really interested in your thinking behind this conclusion as both the Development Planning and Development Management systems in Scotland should lead to the exact opposite outcome.
I'm sure you're right, but I think the geography and physics systems in Scotland might be more immediate concerns for would-be franchisees.
Norfolktolancashire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 22:05
The Dunkeld at grade roundabout will be a magnet for all the usual fast food restaurants, motels and EV charging parks.
Will that be what the residents envisage?
That's a fascinating take on the situation. Would be really interested in your thinking behind this conclusion as both the Development Planning and Development Management systems in Scotland should lead to the exact opposite outcome.
Agreed it should lead to the area being protected, however frameworks and councils change over time and the land value around the new junction will rise due to the potential for this sort of development.
There is lots of land over the railway close by, developers would fund a bridge or underpass if the money is right.
Norfolktolancashire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 22:05
The Dunkeld at grade roundabout will be a magnet for all the usual fast food restaurants, motels and EV charging parks.
Will that be what the residents envisage?
That's a fascinating take on the situation. Would be really interested in your thinking behind this conclusion as both the Development Planning and Development Management systems in Scotland should lead to the exact opposite outcome.
Agreed it should lead to the area being protected, however frameworks and councils change over time and the land value around the new junction will rise due to the potential for this sort of development.
There is lots of land over the railway close by, developers would fund a bridge or underpass if the money is right.
There is already an at-grade junction there for the A822 which immediately goes under the railway and passes the fields to the south - I assume is the flat space you're talking about? It has yet to be intensively developed. I'm not sure why the roundabout would suddenly make development more attractive? Perhaps there is a flurry of historic planning applications I'm unaware of? If the developers would be willing to fund an entire railway bridge, why haven't they been willing to fund junction improvements previously?
There is also the Hermitage NTS property later on - full-access at-grade junction to a notable tourist attraction yet footfall barely supports a seasonal coffee van.
Truvelo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 12:47
So they're still persisting with the stupid at-grade roundabout
Ach, it's fine. A reasonable environmental and cost compromise for a not desperately busy road.
Now the design is finalised ...
It's not as bad as the options with a roundabout and insanely expensive tunnel. But the randon rbt is only happening because TS let their own development process get hijacked.
I doubt this is the final design btw. It's just the PRA, a relatively early stage, with glacial progress across A9 schemes giving plenty of time for redesigns.
On the one hand, having a single at-grade roundabout probably doesn’t much affect journey times, safety or any other relevant metric very much.
On the other hand we all know how this works. In the UK we seem to be remarkably open to second rate half-hearted ‘it’ll do’ solutions.
If this at-grade roundabout is accepted, once the precedent has been set, there’ll be loads of them on the upgraded route as the different sections are worked up in more detail.
Then, when the dualling is completed in 2045 or whatever, there will be a whole new cycle of ‘upgrade the sub-standard A9’ to grade separate all the roundabouts. Why can’t we aim high and do the job properly in the first place?
roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 00:25
On the one hand, having a single at-grade roundabout probably doesn’t much affect journey times, safety or any other relevant metric very much.
On the other hand we all know how this works. In the UK we seem to be remarkably open to second rate half-hearted ‘it’ll do’ solutions.
If this at-grade roundabout is accepted, once the precedent has been set, there’ll be loads of them on the upgraded route as the different sections are worked up in more detail.
Isn't this the last detailed design to be done of the whole route?
roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 00:25
On the one hand, having a single at-grade roundabout probably doesn’t much affect journey times, safety or any other relevant metric very much.
On the other hand we all know how this works. In the UK we seem to be remarkably open to second rate half-hearted ‘it’ll do’ solutions.
If this at-grade roundabout is accepted, once the precedent has been set, there’ll be loads of them on the upgraded route as the different sections are worked up in more detail.
Isn't this the last detailed design to be done of the whole route?
I stand corrected if that is the case but who knows what will happen between drawing board and shovels in the ground (or whatever the modern equivalents of those things are), given the length of timescales involved and the pressure to save money...
Public Exhibitions for the updated Dualling project timescales are to be held along the A9 between Perth & Inverness on the following dates between 1pm & 7pm:
- 14th Feb, Kingsmills Hotel, Inverness
- 21st Feb, Macdonald Aviemore Resort
- 22nd Feb, Dalwhinnie Village Hall
- 28th Feb, Pitlochry Festival Theatre
- 29th Feb, Dewars Centre, Perth
roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 00:25
On the one hand, having a single at-grade roundabout probably doesn’t much affect journey times, safety or any other relevant metric very much.
On the other hand we all know how this works. In the UK we seem to be remarkably open to second rate half-hearted ‘it’ll do’ solutions.
If this at-grade roundabout is accepted, once the precedent has been set, there’ll be loads of them on the upgraded route as the different sections are worked up in more detail.
Isn't this the last detailed design to be done of the whole route?
Didn't they only just announce the preferred route? If so they will, at best, now be starting preliminary design. It takes a lot of work to turn a squiggly line on a map into a buildable design.
Norfolktolancashire wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 22:05
The Dunkeld at grade roundabout will be a magnet for all the usual fast food restaurants, motels and EV charging parks.
Will that be what the residents envisage?
That's a fascinating take on the situation. Would be really interested in your thinking behind this conclusion as both the Development Planning and Development Management systems in Scotland should lead to the exact opposite outcome.
Scotland is better at this than England then, where this at-grade roundabout gained a Eurogarages site before the associated new road even opened. Although they've still not finished building the forecourt presumably due to their little tax bill problem...
Don't forget also that on the trunk roads, one of NH's primary stated aims is to facilitate development, and this shows with most recent major schemes being aimed at being near housing growth sites - the A585 near Fleetwood being a good example.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 16:44
Scotland is better at this than England then, where this at-grade roundabout gained a Eurogarages site before the associated new road even opened.
Keep in mind though that a service station and drive thru have been approved at the already badly designed Stonehaven A90 roundabout, with a Tesco possibly to follow too. And a huge development has I think just been approved just off the Broxden roundabout. I’m not sure we’re all that much better!
The chances of any of these facilities appearing in dunkled are between zero and none, the whole reason the pass of birnham has been so difficult to proceed is due to the constraints of the site.
This is also the 1 unattended gulf petrol station which can't run 24hrs due to locals.
