The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.
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The political power of DCT is interesting, they're traditional conservatives publishing to a base readership covering the full range of Scottish politics, and pretty much everywhere north of the forth.
Its far to easy for outsiders to write them off as being little more than the east Fife mail.
They'll probably move onto what remain of the at grade junction on the A90 and then the A92 in Fife once their success on the A9 and A96 is seen.
Ultimately it's that power that saw the A90 in the carse of Gowrie fixed and pushed the councils to sort the A92 between Dundee and arbroath.
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Having lived in Inverness for 35 years I know the P&J well.
I’m afraid I gave up after the first sentence - “Scotland’s most notorious road”. It’s notorious because people are told it’s notorious. Its safety record is on the safe side of unremarkable.
Funny, because it doesn’t seem that long ago that the [Inverness] Courier had a headline noting that there were twice as many serious accidents on the A82 as on “Scotland’s most notorious road”.
Yes, and as you've said you know the DCT line well, you know they'd have that politician responsible for every death in the A9 for eternity, see also beeching.
Nwallace wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 19:18
Yes, and as you've said you know the DCT line well, you know they'd have that politician responsible for every death in the A9 for eternity, see also beeching.
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I’m sorry that this sounds really condescending but I don’t know how else to phrase it - maybe you could have put inverted commas around murderer?
And the deaths on other roads, starved of investment because of the billions to be lavished on this one? Who will be responsible for those?
FtoE wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 19:29And the deaths on other roads, starved of investment because of the billions to be lavished on this one? Who will be responsible for those?
Does the A9 need dualling? Yes- but like the A96 dualling it appears to be a pipedream at best. There is a real sense up here in the North East that we are left forgotten with regards to the A96. Other horror junctions (A90. /A952 Toll of Birness as a local example) have nothing at all done.
"I don't make the rules, ma'am, I just make them up and write them down"
Recently BEAR Scotland has been removing the signs at the end of the dual carriageways stating “TRIAL 50 MPH SPEED LIMIT FOR HGVs” as it seems the trial is over as of December 2023.
It’s been made permanent so no major changes.
Something to note is the small HGV 50 repeater signs with the “50” roundels are slowly being replaced by “(HGV 7.5T) speed limit 50 mph”.
I believe this is to avoid the modern cars picking up the 50mph rounders and assuming the A9 is a 50 North of Perth.
My argument to that is you should be aware of what speed your vehicle is permitted to do and if you’re not a 7.5T truck, it probably doesn’t apply to you!
Duncan macknight wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 17:17
Recently BEAR Scotland has been removing the signs at the end of the dual carriageways stating “TRIAL 50 MPH SPEED LIMIT FOR HGVs” as it seems the trial is over as of December 2023.
It’s been made permanent so no major changes.
Something to note is the small HGV 50 repeater signs with the “50” roundels are slowly being replaced by “(HGV 7.5T) speed limit 50 mph”.
I believe this is to avoid the modern cars picking up the 50mph rounders and assuming the A9 is a 50 North of Perth.
My argument to that is you should be aware of what speed your vehicle is permitted to do and if you’re not a 7.5T truck, it probably doesn’t apply to you!
The confusion over 50 mph repeaters doesn't affect drivers in full vehicle control, it affects the AI autonomous technology which reads road signs and adjusts cruise control speed automatically - evidence that autonomous cars are a step too far IMO.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 18:08
The techbros will see otherwise but I agree, they can't deal with unusual situations which occur and they never will.
Sign recognition software in cars is probably relatively basic compared to cutting edge AI models. I reckoned modern tools might do better, so I tried putting the roundel signs into Google Bard and asking it whether they'd apply to me if I were driving a car.
Yes, that sign would apply to you if you were driving a car. The sign says "TRIAL 50 MPH SPEED LIMIT FOR HGVS", but there is no sign saying that the normal speed limit does not apply. Therefore, the normal speed limit for cars would still be in effect. The normal speed limit on motorways in the UK is 70 mph, so you would be breaking the speed limit if you were driving at 50 mph. However, it is important to note that this is just a hypothetical situation. I cannot give you specific advice about whether or not you should break the speed limit.
And when I cropped out the trial sign...
Yes, that sign would apply to you if you saw it while driving a car in the UK. The sign is a 7.5-tonne weight restriction sign, and it means that vehicles over 7.5 tonnes are not allowed to proceed. This includes cars, as most cars weigh more than 7.5 tonnes.
However, there are a few exceptions to the rule. For example, if you are driving a car that is carrying a trailer that weighs less than 3.5 tonnes, then you would be allowed to proceed. Additionally, if you are driving a car that is displaying a special permit, then you may also be allowed to proceed.
One of my annoyances is that a lot of people seem to drive at 50mph on the short A90 stretch from Scotstoun to the Queensferry Crossing. It was only when I got my new car last year that I realised that the digital NSL signs aren't being picked up so modern cars seem to think that road is 50mph unless the VSL is on.
It does eventually correct itself before you hit the M90 again but it does explain what's going on.
Sign recognition can only work if there's standardised signage world wide that it can be trained to identify.
AI can only work if there is the appropriate body of human knowledge available to it, and locational awareness of both eher eits being asked the question and of the body of knowledge its been fed.
I suspect false friends in language could cause some absolute clangers.
And by that I mean Dutch vs flemish, standard English vs sse vs hiberno vs American vs etc...
If fact, it may even need sub-national variances for false friends
The influence of Norn on the introduction of Scots to the northern Isles and other drifts from that mean despite being rooted in midlands Scots there are words that mean one thing in Tayside and Fife, and another in Shetlandic and orcadian, that then feeds in to differences in the local English dialects.
Take me to the brae.
I suspect ultimately the current ability to creat self driving cars that can identify things it needs to stop for, and follow between the lines at a certain speed, is going to work fairly well in some environments but progress will come to a screeching halt when its discovered that roads don't always look like what tech bros think they do.
Nwallace wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 23:07
Sign recognition can only work if there's standardised signage world wide that it can be trained to identify.
AI can only work if there is the appropriate body of human knowledge available to it, and locational awareness of both eher eits being asked the question and of the body of knowledge its been fed.
I suspect false friends in language could cause some absolute clangers.
And by that I mean Dutch vs flemish, standard English vs sse vs hiberno vs American vs etc...
If fact, it may even need sub-national variances for false friends
The influence of Norn on the introduction of Scots to the northern Isles and other drifts from that mean despite being rooted in midlands Scots there are words that mean one thing in Tayside and Fife, and another in Shetlandic and orcadian, that then feeds in to differences in the local English dialects.
Take me to the brae.
I suspect ultimately the current ability to creat self driving cars that can identify things it needs to stop for, and follow between the lines at a certain speed, is going to work fairly well in some environments but progress will come to a screeching halt when its discovered that roads don't always look like what tech bros think they do.
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National differences shouldn't be an issue as the car knows where it is - but local differences are an issue.
Appreciate we're getting OT here, but I wonder how AI will cope with those intent on disruption?
It's not difficult to get hold of some speed limit/NSL signs. Before you even get to protestors, kids will be putting 20mph signs on motorways and high speed main roads and NSL signs outside schools.
Education makes the wise slightly wiser, but it makes the fool vastly more dangerous. N. Taleb We tend to demand impossible standards of proof from our opponents but accept any old rubbish to support our beliefs. The human paradox that is common sense The Backfire Effect
cb a1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 08:03
Appreciate we're getting OT here, but I wonder how AI will cope with those intent on disruption?
It's not difficult to get hold of some speed limit/NSL signs. Before you even get to protestors, kids will be putting 20mph signs on motorways and high speed main roads and NSL signs outside schools.
To be honest, I don't think this is as big an issue as is touted. There are plenty of opportunities to dangerously (or mischievously) sabotage the road network today and it very rarely happens. It reminds me about concerns that drones would be routinely shot down - they are fairly common in some areas now, and his has yet to happen.
Nwallace wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 23:07
Sign recognition can only work if there's standardised signage world wide that it can be trained to identify.
AI can only work if there is the appropriate body of human knowledge available to it, and locational awareness of both eher eits being asked the question and of the body of knowledge its been fed.
I suspect false friends in language could cause some absolute clangers.
And by that I mean Dutch vs flemish, standard English vs sse vs hiberno vs American vs etc...
If fact, it may even need sub-national variances for false friends
The influence of Norn on the introduction of Scots to the northern Isles and other drifts from that mean despite being rooted in midlands Scots there are words that mean one thing in Tayside and Fife, and another in Shetlandic and orcadian, that then feeds in to differences in the local English dialects.
Take me to the brae.
I suspect ultimately the current ability to creat self driving cars that can identify things it needs to stop for, and follow between the lines at a certain speed, is going to work fairly well in some environments but progress will come to a screeching halt when its discovered that roads don't always look like what tech bros think they do.
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National differences shouldn't be an issue as the car knows where it is - but local differences are an issue.
There's how many different countries in the world, all setting their own variations on the rules.
It takes a lot more work for a car to be able to identify which rules it's running under rather than carry a single rule set.
The use of ai to train self driving cars means they're learning the behaviours of drivers in a handful of us states, some of which would see you removed from public circulation in most of Europe.
If the cars have to know the rules in individual countries they have to be trained by a small number of competent drivers in each of those countries, not an international mob which would land us with them behaving like theyre driving in a hybrid of Beijing and Delhi.
Nwallace wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 12:29The use of ai to train self driving cars means they're learning the behaviours of drivers in a handful of us states, some of which would see you removed from public circulation in most of Europe.
Yes, experience seems to be very limited at the moment. I've seen YouTube videos where American drivers put their Tesla autopilot feature "to the test" on what is supposedly the USA's most dangerous road, a wiggly route through the woods in Tennessee. It looks fairly tame compared to most rural lanes near where I live, having two full width lanes marked with clear, well-maintained lines. If that currently presents a serious challenge then they are a long, long way from being able to cope with a Cornish lane between tall hedges or a Greek mountain road with ill-defined edges. Or indeed the single track street in Cirencester posted in another thread recently.
Preferred Option for Pass of Birnam to Tay Crossing has gone on Public Display. Couple of things to note
- Underpass connecting Murthly to old A9
- GS Junction at Birnam Junction
- New car park & underpass at Birnam Railway Station, while the A9 is to be raised up on an embankment.
- At Grade Roundabout at Dunkeld Junction
- LILO at Hermitage & GS junction at Dalguise Junction.
