M2/A2/A299 Brenley Corner - HE promising improvements

[roadtester]

All I know is that through the sixties and seventies as a kid when my family made this journey quite a bit it was always A2/M2 not A20. I think certainly from Dover, A20 would have been a pretty non-obvious route, especially once the flyover/Jubilee Way starting scooping up traffic out of the docks from 1977(?) onwards.

In the late 1970's and early 1980's I spent a lot of time heading to Kent. There were 3 major bottlenecks but it came down to the fact that neither the A2/M2 or A20/M20 were very satisfactory.

Coming down from the North it scarcely mattered whether you took the M1 or A1 because either way you ended up at 5 ways and in day time you usually ended up on the North Circular fighting your way round to either the Blackwall Tunnel or Dartford Tunnel - until 1980 there was only the one tunnel at Dartford and the queues tailed back for miles. Where possible I tried to hit London late at night as I could get through the centre , through the Blackwall Tunnel and down the A2.

Once over the River neither the A2 nor A20 route was very good but on balance headed for the Channel Ports my usual route was the M2/A2. Canterbury was a pain but so was Ashford and then getting from Folkestone to Dover was a mess as the route at the time took you up Dover Hill and through Capel Le Ferne dumping you in the centre of Dover. If I was headed for West Kent/East Sussex then the route was M20/A20 to Ashford and then what was at the time the B2070, now the A2070 to Brenzett and the A259.

Funnily enough I was just looking at that old section of this thread as well, and reminiscing about my childhood travels. I would still reiterate my point that the A2 was by far the main/obvious route to Dover in the sixties and seventies. The context was that my parents used to work for the British forces in Germany (as teachers in the forces schools) so they and their colleagues, as well as our neighbours, who were army/RAF officers, MoD civil servants and so on, were among the heaviest users of the ferries to get to the UK and thence to family in the North, West, Scotland, Wales or whatever. Tips about new ferry services, UK road openings or how to beat the jams would have been quite a common topic of conversation, which I would have keenly followed, and I don't think I can remember anyone ever mentioning the A20 in that context at all - although I agree it would have been relevant for people heading for Kent/Surrey Sussex or whatever.

In those days, there was far more dualling in the A2/M2 corridor than the A20 corridor. You mention possible congestion at Canterbury, which I don't think was bypassed until 1980 - but that wasn't a problem as we were usually going through at three in the morning or some such ungodly hour. As I think I said up-thread the opening of the flyover/Jubilee Way strongly indicated a preference for/investment in the A2/M2 route too. I think coming off the ferry in Dover and working your way across to pick up the inferior A20 in those days would have been quite a strange thing to do. I'm also pretty sure London would have been signed via the flyover/A2 from the roundabout just outside the docks back then as well. As you say, just getting from Dover to Folkestone would have been pretty off-putting. The other thing was that the A2/M2 provided a guaranteed opportunity to stop for a tea or whatever in the middle of the night at what was then called Farthing Corner services (a very lively place overnight back then) - I suppose there might have been some overnight transport cafes on the A20 but they would have been a far less obvious option for a break.

It wouldn't have occurred to me to go any other way to Dover until there was substantial progress on completing the M20 and the modern A20 DC towards Dover. Obvs, going to Folkestone itself for a crossing rather than Dover would have been different.

[SteveA30]

Good photo illustrating what Dover was like in the 60's. The French must have thought they were still at the Arc de Triomphe.......

https://doverhistorian.files.wordpress. ... xpress.jpg

[roadtester]

Good photo illustrating what Dover was like in the 60's. The French must have thought they were still at the Arc de Triomphe.......

https://doverhistorian.files.wordpress. ... xpress.jpg

That's a great photo. At least the only real problem there is a traffic jam. It's hard to explain what a terrible impression the poor infrastructure in Kent would have made on foreign visitors getting off the ferries in those days. I remember trips to the UK where we would be zooming across Belgium on brand new fully lit motorways to Zeebrugge or Ostende in my dad's lovely Peugeot 504, the engine purring away and the speedo needle nudging 100, which was a lot in those days, only to be dumped a few hours later into scenes of chaos and decay, before tackling the not very good roads to get to the M2 after picking our way through Dover, which wasn't very nice late at night. Put it this way - we saw some pretty unappetising behaviour there and at Farthing Corner which had my dad, a man of progressive leanings, muttering about yobs and the country going to the dogs, and wondering whether compulsory national service might not after all be the solution to some of the UK's then seemingly intractable problems.

It's marvellous that these days, with the upgraded M20/A20, as well as A2/M2 improvements, the infrastructure in Kent easily bears comparison with the port approaches on the other side, and must therefore make a correspondingly so much better impression on visitors.

[Ritchie333]

I would still reiterate my point that the A2 was by far the main/obvious route to Dover in the sixties and seventies.

In the 1980s, the A2 was signed from the Dartford Tunnel as "Rochester, Dover". It's now signed as "Canterbury". The main route from Surrey and Sussex was along the M26 / M20 and up the A249 to the M2. It was the Channel Tunnel that changed everything and made the M20 the more important road, including completing junction 8 to 9, done ten years after the rest.

Of course thanks to B-you know what, junction 8 to 9 can now be faster on the A20, especially in the early hours of the morning, and higher speed limits in places.

It's marvellous that these days, with the upgraded M20/A20, as well as A2/M2 improvements, the infrastructure in Kent easily bears comparison with the port approaches on the other side, and must therefore make a correspondingly so much better impression on visitors.

I don't think it's quite a like-for-like comparison. If you come off Dover, you still have to content with a bit of urban traffic before getting out onto the dual carriageway on the M20, or along bits of single carriageway round Dover on the A2. Compare to the N216, where you come straight off the ferry terminal onto a de-facto motorway to everywhere else.

[roadtester]

I would still reiterate my point that the A2 was by far the main/obvious route to Dover in the sixties and seventies.

In the 1980s, the A2 was signed from the Dartford Tunnel as "Rochester, Dover". It's now signed as "Canterbury". The main route from Surrey and Sussex was along the M26 / M20 and up the A249 to the M2. It was the Channel Tunnel that changed everything and made the M20 the more important road, including completing junction 8 to 9, done ten years after the rest.

Yes, I agree the Channel Tunnel made all the difference. Although A2/M2 was previously the main ports corridor, if it had been subjected to a full upgrade on that basis, some of that spending might have wasted (especially the bit beyond Canterbury, viewed from London) given the eventual location of the Tunnel terminal, which shifted the whole focus from Dover to the Folkestone area. So once the Tunnel was in play, it definitely made sense to concentrate on M20/A20.

[KeithW]

I don't think it's quite a like-for-like comparison. If you come off Dover, you still have to content with a bit of urban traffic before getting out onto the dual carriageway on the M20, or along bits of single carriageway round Dover on the A2. Compare to the N216, where you come straight off the ferry terminal onto a de-facto motorway to everywhere else.

Its only a mile from the terminal entrance to the start of the A20 and its D2, the pedestrian crossings can be a pain but its really no big deal.

One of the reasons I used the A2 in the early 1970's was that I preferred the Hovercraft from Pegwell Bay to the continent. At the time the cross channel service from Folkestone was passenger only. That said the trains pulled onto the pier and you could walk across to the ship so it was a great option if you were not taking a car. I used it a couple of times when on coach tours.

[Brenley Corner]

Its only a mile from the terminal entrance to the start of the A20 and its D2, the pedestrian crossings can be a pain but its really no big deal.

I may be missing a trick or misunderstanding what is being said, but the A20 D2 actually starts at the roundabout at the Eastern Docks Entrance (the same place where the A2 Jubilee Way starts). Then it is a mile or two of a 40mph limit plus a few roundabouts or traffic light controlled junctions before the road become NSL.

https://goo.gl/maps/tfRpKna5MeFbSkY47

Tony

[Ritchie333]

I may be missing a trick or misunderstanding what is being said, but the A20 D2 actually starts at the roundabout at the Eastern Docks Entrance (the same place where the A2 Jubilee Way starts). Then it is a mile or two of a 40mph limit plus a few roundabouts or traffic light controlled junctions before the road become NSL.

Also, not everyone comes this way to go to Dover Docks. the M20 / A2 / A256 is sometimes the quickest route for me to get to Deal, Sandwich or Thanet (indeed, the approach to Samphire Hoe is signposted "Dover + docks A20, Canterbury (A2), Ramsgate (A256)". A jam at Dover Docks makes going all the way up the A28 competitive.

[AnOrdinarySABREUser]

First, your design effectively "unbypasses" Boughton for a significant amount of traffic.

The main intention with what I proposed was for the junction at Dunkirk to eventually be closed and relegate the current A2 through Boughton (and likely up to Harbledown) as being a local (access) road, which I'd imagine would incentivise traffic to use the M2 instead of the A2 through Boughton via the Harbledown link.

You mention a link to the A290 at Harbledown but traffic continuing along the A2 (London Road) would still have to go through Boughton in your design

In an ideal world, the junction would be closed after the opening of the Harbledown link in order to prevent traffic from accessing Boughton via the M2. Not to mention that it is awfully steep and quite narrow in the village centre, so there's no denying that.

not to mention the extra cost of the Harbledown link compared to Bryn's bridge.

Once again, this would be a more expensive option. However, my main thinking with this was to cut off a mile or so from the journey to Whitstable from the A2 onto the A299 and try and relieve it of traffic somewhat. This would likely entail more improvements to the A290 (maybe a single carriageway bypass?), but again it does seem quite expensive.

Second, Bryn has the A299 retaining the mainline, which is appropriate to traffic volumes (45k A299 vs 35k A2).

I don't think it matters much either way, given that 1 and a half lanes could be dedicated to either road.

The NH budget for the scheme is £139m per the pipeline

Oh, the horror!

(end response)

Nonetheless, the feedback is much appreciated. I think everyone can agree that a freeflow link is required at Brenley Corner, but this is just how I'd do things. The only thing which also needs to be upgraded is J6 now. It's just a downright awful and dangerous junction and something far better could be put in this place. I'd also suspect there'd be weaving issues between J6 and J7 due to the close proximity if a new freeflow link was added (I measured it and between the options it's something like 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile, so yeah). Also, I think it's best we continue exploring this, maybe we could have some input when the time comes around!

[AnOrdinarySABREUser]

Also, regarding the Harbledown link, I came up with this:

• The blue is the M2 which will reuse part of the A2 alignment but partially straightened and slightly further away when adjacent to the A2.
• The existing overbridge over the A2050 would be demolished and replaced with two new ones over the roundabout.
• The existing overbridge over Faulkners Lane could be demolished or retrofitted to allow for the new slip road placement.
• The northfacing onslip at Wincheap Interchange would likely be shut due to weaving concerns, and a new link road will be built to accommodate this, tying into the stub here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.2721258 ... 312!8i6656
• New roundabouts will be built with a new LILO configuration being provided for Palmars Cross Hill similar to the one shown in the above image.
• A simple crossroads will be implemented for access to Hall Place.
• Along the link road, a site (which looks decently flat) could be used for a new service station replacing the current ones at Gate.
• Also, there'll be provision left for a potential A28 bypass à la the Dalkeith Bypass in Scotland.

That's it basically. I tried to keep it quite reasonable, although I'm sure that this would be worth quite a fortune, not to count the cost of the new link and new arrangement at Brenley Corner. I'd like to see your thoughts!

[Peter Freeman]

How about something like this? More expensive but retains local access.

God save us!

[jackal]

How about something like this? More expensive but retains local access.

God save us!

On reflection not necessary as there's a GSJ for local access nearby. So just close the local road at the roundabout and put in a freeflow left as Brenley Corner himself suggested upthread.

[Peter Freeman]

How about something like this? More expensive but retains local access.

God save us!

On reflection not necessary as there's a GSJ for local access nearby. So just close the local road at the roundabout and put in a freeflow left as Brenley Corner himself suggested upthread.

Of course. That would be the standard solution, and a sensible one in the current roads-austerity climate. I expect it will happen (sometime ...!). Bryn's layout would be wonderful, but it's quite implausible.

Westbound congestion to the roundabout is severe in the pm peak.

To Brenley Corner's Brenley Corner proposal, I would add -

Circulatory widening (western side of the roundabout only)
Three-lane off-ramp for M2 northbound
Signalisation and 3 lanes for A2 eastbound approach
Signalisation, or preferably closure, of the NW minor road (as well as the SE one's closure)
Spiral line marking.

[jackal]

God save us!

On reflection not necessary as there's a GSJ for local access nearby. So just close the local road at the roundabout and put in a freeflow left as Brenley Corner himself suggested upthread.

Of course. That would be the standard solution, and a sensible one in the current roads-austerity climate. I expect it will happen (sometime ...!). Bryn's layout would be wonderful, but it's quite implausible.

Westbound congestion to the roundabout is severe in the pm peak.

To Brenley Corner's Brenley Corner proposal, I would add -

Circulatory widening (western side of the roundabout only)
Three-lane off-ramp for M2 northbound
Signalisation and 3 lanes for A2 eastbound approach
Signalisation, or preferably closure, of the NW minor road (as well as the SE one's closure)
Spiral line marking.

Well, the budget was apparently £139m, so potentially they could have freeflow for M2 to A2 eb as well. It would be similar to the Thickthorn design with a big freeflow right turn and smaller freeflow left turn at the roundabout.

[JammyDodge]

You could do something like this:

It has low land take and requires 2 bridges and could potentially maintain full access for the "local" traffic if needed, while separating it away from the roundabout

[Peter Freeman]

Well, the budget was apparently £139m, so potentially they could have freeflow for M2 to A2 eb as well. It would be similar to the Thickthorn design with a big freeflow right turn and smaller freeflow left turn at the roundabout.

The comparison to Thickthorn is interesting. The Thickthorn interchange currently has (overall) a lesser congestion problem than Brenley Corner, yet it is an approved and funded scheme. Perhaps this is because it's part of a corridor-wide set of improvements (A47), which HE likes to do, as opposed to discrete schemes that tackle severe congestion hotspots?

In terms of design comparison, Thickthorn's main queue (A47wb) is proposed to be fixed by a freeflow left, as would be the main queue (A2wb) at Brenley Corner: all good. Thickthorne's proposed A11-A47 right-turn flyover would address its second congestion point: the queue on A11nb. Brenley Corner doesn't (I don't know why) appear to have this symmetrical problem (at least, not as serious - it doesn't seem to queue back to the M2nb mainline). So perhaps it doesn't need a big, expensive right-turn flyover. And doesn't need £139m ?

It wouldn't do any harm of course!

[6637]

I'd be tempted by something like this. Only one new bridge- the slope of it would add costs, but it's still relatively little in comparison to multi bridge proposals.

[jackal]

Well, the budget was apparently £139m, so potentially they could have freeflow for M2 to A2 eb as well. It would be similar to the Thickthorn design with a big freeflow right turn and smaller freeflow left turn at the roundabout.

The comparison to Thickthorn is interesting. The Thickthorn interchange currently has (overall) a lesser congestion problem than Brenley Corner, yet it is an approved and funded scheme. Perhaps this is because it's part of a corridor-wide set of improvements (A47), which HE likes to do, as opposed to discrete schemes that tackle severe congestion hotspots?

In terms of design comparison, Thickthorn's main queue (A47wb) is proposed to be fixed by a freeflow left, as would be the main queue (A2wb) at Brenley Corner: all good. Thickthorne's proposed A11-A47 right-turn flyover would address its second congestion point: the queue on A11nb. Brenley Corner doesn't (I don't know why) appear to have this symmetrical problem (at least, not as serious - it doesn't seem to queue back to the M2nb mainline). So perhaps it doesn't need a big, expensive right-turn flyover. And doesn't need £139m ?

It wouldn't do any harm of course!

The M2 offslip is amber back onto the mainline on some "typical" weekday mornings. Also, all four major approaches to the roundabout are amber in many peaks, and the big freeflow right turn would relieve three of them.

More generally, the Google congestion tool is useful for a general impression of things, but not really suited to something as detailed as junction design.

[Mapper89062]

At the small cost of closing off Brenley Lane (it is accessible to the east via some country lanes), you could freeflow the necessary movements with zero bridges, although significant earthworks and land:

The junction is converted to a folded dumbbell, with the extra bridge used to freeflow the right turn. The weaving to the east is tight, but some of the savings on no bridges could be used to add an extra lane for weaving between the junctions, or you could force vehicles coming to/from Boughton to join the freeflow slips then U-turn at Junction 6 to get to the A299. (I expect many locals already drive up to the next junction north rather than wait in queues here).

At slightly greater cost, the existing left turns off the M2 could be retained as freeflow lefts onto the A2, converting the junction into a six-ramp parclo with the heavy right turn on a separate bridge to allow more lanes.

[jackal]

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