M2/A2/A299 Brenley Corner - HE promising improvements

[Brenley Corner]

It appears that we have been suffering increasing congestion at this junction in East Kent for some time. A few years ago traffic lights were installed on the exit from the M2 and the exit from the A299 and this helped congestion for a while, but since Christmas things seemed to have got worse very suddenly. In both peak hours congestion now regularly goes back on the A2 2 or more miles towards Canterbury, and has now also started queueing back a mile or so on the A2 from the Faversham direction during the evening peak. It appeared to be some kind of traffic light timing issue but the HE claim that nothing is wrong. However it is now emerging in the local press (LINK) that HE are developing solutions to the problems but are being very vague and cagey.

Any suggestions on how this could improve, especially given that HE are not likely to be splashing vast amounts of cash? In both peaks there is a heavy movement londonbound up the A2 and onto both the M2 and the A2 towards Faversham. In the evening peak there is heavy flow along the M2 to A2 coastbound and also from the A2 coastbound to both the A299 towards Thanet and the A2 towards Canterbury.

I think I would put money on a left turn lane from the A2 to the M2 londonbound and closing off the local accesses (especially Brenley Lane) - and not much more.

Tony

[frediculous_biggs]

I think I would put money on a left turn lane from the A2 to the M2 londonbound and closing off the local accesses (especially Brenley Lane) - and not much more.

Having sat in this queue earlier today (I try to leave early or late to avoid it), this is good to hear.

I would imagine that might actually cut the queue on the A2 from Canterbury a fair amount. A lot of it is traffic slowing down for the roundabout even though (almost) nothing ever comes round that section.

One other small improvement would be some lane signs so that when travelling M2 -> A2(S) people realise you can use both lanes all the way round. The amount of times people move left when there's no need to and this all adds to the congestion too.

[Ben302]

Bit of a this one but how about a M25 J3 style freeflow between the M2 and A2.

[Brock]

Does anyone know why the junction was built like that in the first place? It seems obvious to me that the main flow would have been between the M2 and the A2, both eastbound and westbound.

[wrinkly]

Does anyone know why the junction was built like that in the first place? It seems obvious to me that the main flow would have been between the M2 and the A2, both eastbound and westbound.

The A20/M20 was supposed to be the trunk route between London and Dover. It was a long time before the DfT or its predecessors agreed to dualling between Canterbury and Doer.

[Bryn666]

Does anyone know why the junction was built like that in the first place? It seems obvious to me that the main flow would have been between the M2 and the A2, both eastbound and westbound.

The A20/M20 was supposed to be the trunk route between London and Dover. It was a long time before the DfT or its predecessors agreed to dualling between Canterbury and Doer.

As Wrinkly says, the M2 was intended to connect with the Thanet Way, which itself wasn't dualled until the early 1990s. The Costa Geriatrica needed a good link to London.

[Chris5156]

Does anyone know why the junction was built like that in the first place? It seems obvious to me that the main flow would have been between the M2 and the A2, both eastbound and westbound.

The A20/M20 was supposed to be the trunk route between London and Dover. It was a long time before the DfT or its predecessors agreed to dualling between Canterbury and Doer.

Indeed, when the M2 was built, the idea that you might take the A2 to Dover rather than the A20 would have been thought a little eccentric. Until that time the A2 had been a long slog through the Medway Towns and was not much more than a local road. The terminus of the M2 reflected the fact that it would continue to serve north Kent, and that the A20 would continue to serve port traffic.

[Brock]

But the M2 is older than the M20. When I lived in south-east London in the 70s and 80s, Dover was signed along the A2/M2; the A20 was signed for Folkestone (or was it Maidstone?), and there wasn't really an M20 to speak of. Gradually the signage changed to "A20 (M20)" but the destination didn't ever change to Dover as I recall.

[Stevie D]

But the M2 is older than the M20. When I lived in south-east London in the 70s and 80s, Dover was signed along the A2/M2; the A20 was signed for Folkestone (or was it Maidstone?), and there wasn't really an M20 to speak of. Gradually the signage changed to "A20 (M20)" but the destination didn't ever change to Dover as I recall.

Until the mid-90s, the fast M20/A20 route effectively ended at Folkestone and you were then dumped onto local roads – the main route to Dover at that time was via M2/A2 – heck, until 1991, the M20 had a gap between Maidstone and Ashford, quite incredibly. I remember going from Surrey to Dover ferry port, we went M25 > M26 > M20 > A249 > M2 > A2, and that was considered the normal route.

[c2R]

I think a mixture of the above is true...

Prior to the M2 being constructed, traffic heading for Margate/Ramsgate would have used A2, while Dover and Folkestone would use the A20 - Margate and Ramsgate were much more significant ports than now. The A2 was very slow through the Meadway towns and then through Canterbury.

With the coming of the M2 and bypass at Canterbury, traffic diverted so that to get to Dover this would be the route that was taken. Presumably the decision to route the main line of the M2 towards Margate and Ramsgate was at a point in time where these were important seaside resorts for London and there were also still a large amount of ferry and dock traffic. These ports eventually became less significant.

The full opening of the M20 and A20 dual carriageway to Dover means that this is now the usual way for most people to travel from London to Dover or the Channel Tunnel.

[Brenley Corner]

I think a mixture of the above is true...

Prior to the M2 being constructed, traffic heading for Margate/Ramsgate would have used A2, while Dover and Folkestone would use the A20 - Margate and Ramsgate were much more significant ports than now. The A2 was very slow through the Meadway towns and then through Canterbury.

With the coming of the M2 and bypass at Canterbury, traffic diverted so that to get to Dover this would be the route that was taken. Presumably the decision to route the main line of the M2 towards Margate and Ramsgate was at a point in time where these were important seaside resorts for London and there were also still a large amount of ferry and dock traffic. These ports eventually became less significant.

The full opening of the M20 and A20 dual carriageway to Dover means that this is now the usual way for most people to travel from London to Dover or the Channel Tunnel.

You have to bear in mind that beyond the end of the M2 the A2 was a fairly low standard narrow road running through towns and villages. The M2 reached Brenley Corner in the middle of 1963, but it was not until the middle of the 1970s that any of the road beyond was improved and this was only done piecemeal at the insistence and persistence of the County Council as some of the villages were being destroyed by the heavy traffic. Dunkirk and Boughton were bypassed in 1975/76, Bridge in 1976, and Dover in 1977. The bypass of Canterbury was the last to open in 1981 so up to that time all port traffic was going through a city with half a ring road!

By contrast, at the end of 1981 on the A20/M20 route the only section of M20 not open was Maidstone (bypassed 1960) to Ashford (bypassed 1958). That section of A20 was a wide arterial route and was better able to cope. I'm not sure when the decision to designate the A20/M20 route as the main route for all port traffic but I believe it was fairly early. Hansard makes it clear that by the time the M2 opened there was never any question of the it being continued in any direction despite questions being asked by local MPs.

[Andy P]

In the 1960s my parents drove with me most years from Yorkshire to Dover as the first part of our annual continental holiday.

The first time was in 1961, and we went on the A2. My Dad later told me that the road from Canterbury to Dover was then very narrow, he implied it was S1 in places. I have no personal memory of that.

So for the next couple of years we used the A20, but with the opening of the Dartford Tunnel and M2, and I assume some improvements after Canterbury, we started using the M2/A2 route from 1963 or 1964.

I have some memories that the A2 at the time went round the walls of Canterbury and not through the centre.

[Gareth Thomas]

I have some memories that the A2 at the time went round the walls of Canterbury and not through the centre.

Indeed - the A2 did use what passes for the ring road in Canterbury until the current A2 bypass was opened (it is now the A290/A28).

I do recall the signs on the M20 saying to use J7 and the A249 for Dover, this was before the "Missing Link" was completed in 1991.

Back to the original topic, there was a theory that the sudden change in direction of the M2 just before Junction 7 was to provide a junction allowing free-flowing access onto the A2. It was discussed on here once or twice, I think. No evidence to back this up, and I doubt very much that this is what HE have in mind.

Question: How much traffic actually uses the two local roads at Junction 7?

[Brenley Corner]

I have some memories that the A2 at the time went round the walls of Canterbury and not through the centre.

The Canterbury Ring Road such as it is was built as follows: Stage 1 (or the "A2 Diversion") was completed around 1962/63 (currently between A290 and A28 Ashford), and Phase 2 was completed in 1969 (between A28 Ashford & A2/A2050 Dover). The remaining phases were never completed and plans were abandoned in the early 1970s.

Back to the original topic, there was a theory that the sudden change in direction of the M2 just before Junction 7 was to provide a junction allowing free-flowing access onto the A2. It was discussed on here once or twice, I think. No evidence to back this up, and I doubt very much that this is what HE have in mind.

Question: How much traffic actually uses the two local roads at Junction 7?

There is no evidence in Hansard that this was ever a serious proposal. Local MPs asked throughout the 1960s about the continuation of the M2 to Dover but this was never proposed, and neither were free-flowing slip roads The M2 was built as, and remains isolated as, and the "Medway Towns Motor-Road/Bypass"

The local roads could easily be detached from the junction itself as there are local alternatives, however Brenley Lane attracts a lot of all day parking along its entire short length and cars can be squeezed in and double parked on one side; the other side of the road has been provided with double yellow lines. This happens seven days a week although less on Saturdays & Sundays. I suspect that these are to do with lift shares or some lift/transport arrangement.

Tony

[A21Will]

I work around Faversham and drive this area every day, often from several different directions. I cannot think of many occasions if any when I have needed to use either local road, especially the one north to Graveney which can equally well be approached from the A299 or Love lane off the A2 east of Faversham. The Brenley road is not worth using if you intend to get out of it onto the roundabout anyway as the constant A2 - M2 traffic flow makes it a lost cause. So I can't see that they serve much purpose, and while closure of the Graveney road wouldn't be worth it as there is little to be gained from doing so, I think the Brenley road would be worth sacrificing for a dedicated slip for the A2-M2 flow.

To be honest, I am certain that the traffic lights have varied in their phasing to try and improve things. All that is ever achieved is moving the huge queue from one place to another, though the current arrangement benefits me. Some of the light phasing tried 18 months or so ago produced morning eastbound queues on the M2 back to a mile west of J6, while the A2 flowed freely from Canterbury. The latter road is now the victim, and it has got much worse since Christmas, I can only assume because the phasing has been changed slightly. I somehow doubt several hundred more vehicles each morning suddenly started using it in the new year!

[frediculous_biggs]

Question: How much traffic actually uses the two local roads at Junction 7?

The times when I use Brenley in the morning rush hour, there's traffic queuing to join the junction from Homestall Lane.


I hope in all the (/any) building work the Motorway-font primary route sign isn't lost.

[Brenley Corner]

I hope in all the (/any) building work the Motorway-font primary route sign isn't lost.

Or even the very unusual All-Upper-Case "LONDON" on the gantry over the A299 Eastbound at Brenley Corner - Street View.

Tony

[Andy P]

I have some memories that the A2 at the time went round the walls of Canterbury and not through the centre.

The Canterbury Ring Road such as it is was built as follows: Stage 1 (or the "A2 Diversion") was completed around 1962/63 (currently between A290 and A28 Ashford), and Phase 2 was completed in 1969 (between A28 Ashford & A2/A2050 Dover). The remaining phases were never completed and plans were abandoned in the early 1970s.

This is very interesting, and brings back some 50 year-old memories.

I have a couple of questions:

Did Stage 1 include the Rheims Way shortcut between London Road and the Ring Road, or was that completed later?

Between Stages 1 and 2, how did the A2 go between the A28 junction and the Dover Road? Was it an unimproved road along the same line as Stage 2? And which Dover Road was then used?

[Brenley Corner]

I have a couple of questions:

Did Stage 1 include the Rheims Way shortcut between London Road and the Ring Road, or was that completed later?

Yes, sorry, it did. I simplified the locations a bit for those who don't really know the area. Phase 1 diverted the A2 traffic away from London Road and the Westgate Towers down to St Peters Roundabout at which point it turned ninety degrees and ran across a new route to the A28 near to the railway bridge. All completed in 1962/63, including the Wincheap Roundabout.

Between Stages 1 and 2, how did the A2 go between the A28 junction and the Dover Road? Was it an unimproved road along the same line as Stage 2? And which Dover Road was then used?

For the six years between Phase 1 & Phase 2, A2 traffic ran along unimproved roads on the current route between the Wincheap Roundabout and New Dover Road where traffic turned right at a set of traffic lights at narrow junction. Phase 2 dualled this route by building a new carraigeway between the existing roads and the city wall (bulldozing a narrow srip of parkland and a futher along the former cattle market being used at that time as a surface car park). It also provided large roundabouts at the two key junctions, although the one at "Riding Gate" had actually been bulit ahead of the main project.
New Dover Road has always been used as the A2 (now A2050) for the last 100/150 years or so.

Hope that helps,
Tony

[Andy P]

Thanks for the reply, it's confirmed what I thought.

I have vague memories of the new Rheims Way, the Walls and the narrow junction into New Dover Road.

I also have good memories of the junction at Brenley Corner, and thinking even as a child that the layout was very strange.