Upgrading the A66 and A69

[Helvellyn]

Why go to the expense and interruption of sinking an underpass ?

There is enough land and a direct route that would enable the A66 to be taken away from the A66 and run across to the M6 with a simple junction onto the M6. Bear in mind the traffic flows are predominately M6 south the A66 east and A66 west to M6 north. If would sort that out and get some of the flows away from junction 40 that would allow flow to be separated.

Is A66 W to M6 N really that big a flow? I'd have thought a lot of traffic coming from that direction on the A66 would be tourists heading south from a visit to the Lakes.

Cant see how its likely AADF from the west is only 18k, about the same level as the A66 E and the M6 south is hardly overloaded, I have never had any problems getting on to the M6 southbound. Equally a lot of traffic comes north up the M6/A6 from the southern Lakes to take the A66 over the pennines and on to Teesside and Tyneside.

From further south to head east (although it depends exactly where you're coming from) I'd go via Tebay and Kirkby Stephen instead, although that route's closed to HGVs these days. It's sixteen miles versus forty-three if you go up to Penrith then along the A66.

[KeithW]

The problem as I see it is that short cut from the A66 takes you across some difficult terrain which would add to the cost and attract considerable protest.

This is the Eden Valley Route
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.64560 ... !1e4?hl=en

Whinfell
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.62971 ... !1e4?hl=en

The killer I suspect would be the North Pennines AONB
https://www.northpennines.org.uk/what_w ... b-1km-map/

[Helvellyn]

Actually building anything in that area would rightly cause a lot of protest (some of it has already been altered in the past anyway - for several miles east of Tebay the A685 follows the course of the former Stainmore railway), and in any case it's not particularly busy at the moment so there wouldn't be much of a case. But since it's a considerably shorter route for M6S to A66E I'd guess that a fair amount of what traffic there is that wants to go in that direction is already doing so, at least non-HGV traffic.

Come to think of it just where is all the A66 traffic going to and from? Tourism to the Lakes from the NE will be a fair bit, there'll be some non-tourist traffic to places further south but for the larger areas the A1 - M62 route seems more obvious (at least for Manchester etc., Preston the A66 - M6 would be more direct), but I'm guessing a fair chunk is NE to / from the Glasgow area. The southbound slip road from the M6 seems to be the one that jams up more, although there's the extra branch off the roundabout to Penrith on that side which also might explain it.

[KeithW]

Come to think of it just where is all the A66 traffic going to and from? Tourism to the Lakes from the NE will be a fair bit, there'll be some non-tourist traffic to places further south but for the larger areas the A1 - M62 route seems more obvious (at least for Manchester etc., Preston the A66 - M6 would be more direct), but I'm guessing a fair chunk is NE to / from the Glasgow area. The southbound slip road from the M6 seems to be the one that jams up more, although there's the extra branch off the roundabout to Penrith on that side which also might explain it.

My route to Western Scotland and the highlands is typically A66/M6/A1/A74(M)/M74
From Glasgow its either Erskine Bridge and A82 or M80/M9 to Stirling.

A lot of HGV's use the route to western Scotland because from Leeds or Doncaster its shorter and faster and ideal for getting to Cairnryan via the A75.

[rileyrob]

Come to think of it just where is all the A66 traffic going to and from? Tourism to the Lakes from the NE will be a fair bit, there'll be some non-tourist traffic to places further south but for the larger areas the A1 - M62 route seems more obvious (at least for Manchester etc., Preston the A66 - M6 would be more direct), but I'm guessing a fair chunk is NE to / from the Glasgow area. The southbound slip road from the M6 seems to be the one that jams up more, although there's the extra branch off the roundabout to Penrith on that side which also might explain it.

Well, we're away to a wedding near Sheffield this weekend, and attended another one near Leeds last year. Although Google suggests using the M62 is slightly quicker this time, we plan on using the A66 again.
Workwise, Inverness to anywhere south of Durham / east of the Pennines in a lorry is via the M74 and A66, and I would imagine a lot of Scotland to London / the Channel traffic uses the A66. I haven't used the M62 route round Manchester much, only twice I think, but I kind of expect it to be busy and congested, much as the M6 is, so would rather take my chances on the A66 if I'm going vaguely in that direction, and most people up here seem to think the same. No one really thinks of the M1 / A1 routes as being congested north of the M62 anyway. I am willing to believe this is wholly inaccurate, but it is a common perception in the Highlands. The Edinburgh bypass is the other place people look on with horror!!

[Helvellyn]

Rather fits with the assumption that Scotland to NE England could be the major flow then, cheers.

[Gav]

Why does it have to be D2 rather than lost of sections of S2+1, that's what the A470 is badly missing, overtaking opportunities.

The A66 is rather busier than the A470 with a higher proportion of HGVs. And D2 has a lot better safety record than S2+1.

cost between S2+1 and D2 isnt much when you think that they are trying to remove the right hand turns aswell. cost then starts to look very similar to dualing. we also have to consider that there would be a fair bit of off line going on, and also the road where on line is occurring is still going to be carrying a lot of traffic

[KeithW]

Once the A66 is done what should follow next is upgrading the A69 between west of Hexham and the M6 to D2. In practical terms the A689 from Brampton may be the better option as it avoids Warwick Bridge and provides access to Carlisle Airport.

[owen b]

The A66 in my experience is a good option for practically any generally east of England traffic to/from most places in Scotland generally west of Edinburgh or north of Perth.

For example, Google generally tells me that A1/A66 is only five minutes or so slower than M1/M6 from my home in Luton to the M6 at J40 Penrith, so I often end up going that way when the M1/M6 is congested. I'm sure that just about anywhere nearer the A1 than the M1 north of the M25 will find that A1/A66 is generally quicker.

[Gav]

I do broxburn to York and back quite often and have done a few of the routes... Have to say so far the A66 is the better route. A1 north of Newcastle isnt great. Can be slow and a pain. with quite a few roundabouts.

Getting off at scotchcorner and then heading over to the M6 before heading north... Its a no brainer.

[Mikey]

Once the A66 is done what should follow next is upgrading the A69 between west of Hexham and the M6 to D2. In practical terms the A689 from Brampton may be the better option as it avoids Warwick Bridge and provides access to Carlisle Airport.

I suspect they will wait for the PFI to end on the A69, i think thats up shortly though!

Carlisle Airport isn't doing a lot at the moment either.

[Mikey]

There will be no additional slip roads or segregated left turns at J40. When they say "a dedicated left turn" they just seem to mean that lane 1 on A66 westbound will be designated for the left turn rather than for the left turn or straight ahead.

General arrangement: https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... 20Bank.pdf

(This was the layout prior to the current consultation; the only change to J40 itself is the NMU route.)

What is there right now on the slip roads is this
southbound - a dedicated left turn lane, a shared middle lane and right turn lane
northbound - a shared left turn lane, a shared lane 2 that widens on the roundabout to 3 lanes
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.65307 ... !1e3?hl=en

What the scheme shows is this
southbound - 2 dedicated left turn lanes, a shared middle lane and right turn lane 4 in all
northbound - same as southbound

GSV clearly shows there is enough unused width on the slip to add the extra lane. Space that was largely hatched off.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.65429 ... 8192?hl=en

The A66 from J40 to Kemplay Bank is currently 2 lanes, it will become 3 lanes with 2 going over the flyover and 1 using the roundabout for the A6

It still has the signals below the island on the A592 leg. This is the part (not all) of the current issue with the M6 backing up in L1. It shouldn't be on there at all and the NMU route re-routed.

[Mikey]

Assuming you are talking about Kemplay Bank, the new proposal is for a flyover.

Its still going under, just moving slightly for buildability.

[jackal]

Assuming you are talking about Kemplay Bank, the new proposal is for a flyover.

Its still going under, just moving slightly for buildability.

Thanks. They are raising the mainline compared to the previous proposal, which I guess is what I was remembering in a garbled form. As you say, it will still be an underpass:

We are also looking at raising the mainline
through the underpass, which will have
several benefits. It reduces the amount of
material which is required to be excavated and
taken off site, reduces the length of retaining
structures required on the approach to the
underpass and shortens the construction
programme. We are looking to introduce a
central pier for these bridges which reduces
the thickness of the bridge and allows us to
further raise the mainline whilst maintaining
the required headroom under the bridge.

https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... 202023.pdf

[Glenn A]

Once the A66 is done what should follow next is upgrading the A69 between west of Hexham and the M6 to D2. In practical terms the A689 from Brampton may be the better option as it avoids Warwick Bridge and provides access to Carlisle Airport.

Warwick Bridge definitely needs a by pass, as it is a pain to get through at busy times, and consideration should be given to by passing Low Row and dualling the A69 to the Greenhead by pass.
The A689 is fine as it is, being a decent section of S2 from Brampton to Greymoorhill, and links in nicely with the Carlisle NDR for traffic going east- west. People may criticise the NDR for its roundabouts, but it takes 10 minutes off the journey from west Cumbria to the North East and 20 minutes off the journey to Scotland.

[jackal]

A66 Northern Trans-Pennine update:

The Examination closed on 29 May 2023. There will now be a period of three months for the Examining Authority to write its report and make a recommendation to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State will then have three months in which to make a decision.

https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... n=overview

[Glenn A]

I was in Carlisle earlier this week and work has started properly on the southern link road, with a sign stating the completion date will be summer 2025. If the A69 was rerouted to jct 44 of the M6, I wonder which number the NDR and SLR would use, although if nothing changes, my thinking is this could be a continuation of the A689 or possibly A595.

[Mikey]

I was in Carlisle earlier this week and work has started properly on the southern link road, with a sign stating the completion date will be summer 2025. If the A69 was rerouted to jct 44 of the M6, I wonder which number the NDR and SLR would use, although if nothing changes, my thinking is this could be a continuation of the A689 or possibly A595.

Will be a continuation of the A689.

[Glenn A]

I was in Carlisle earlier this week and work has started properly on the southern link road, with a sign stating the completion date will be summer 2025. If the A69 was rerouted to jct 44 of the M6, I wonder which number the NDR and SLR would use, although if nothing changes, my thinking is this could be a continuation of the A689 or possibly A595.

Will be a continuation of the A689.

Logical as the new road is an extension of the A689 and will mean Carlisle now has a full outer ring road.

[SouthWest Philip]

I was in Carlisle earlier this week and work has started properly on the southern link road, with a sign stating the completion date will be summer 2025. If the A69 was rerouted to jct 44 of the M6, I wonder which number the NDR and SLR would use, although if nothing changes, my thinking is this could be a continuation of the A689 or possibly A595.

Will be a continuation of the A689.

Logical as the new road is an extension of the A689 and will mean Carlisle now has a full outer ring road.

Logical, to an extent now but not if the A69 gets diverted onto the A689 west of Brampton.

I'd have preferred the NDR to have become the A595 with perhaps the SLR being an extension of the A596. All the A-roads with the ring road/M6 could be 4-digit A-roads or "do a Winchester" and make them all B-roads.